— Hire for Customer Service, Not Credentials

Andrew Moore 0:00

This is the How to MSP podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Moore.

Jack Lincourt 0:06

And if I have to call a customer to say someone was following an established process and it caused a problem at your practice or at your business, I have no problem making that phone call because we've already got a good relationship with them. They know we run on process. They know we work with people that are following steps to do it the right way. So something bad happens, they know we're going to fix that process so it doesn't happen again. Having that credibility with our customers is key to growing people because it means that the customer doesn't get mad at the tech for making a mistake.

Andrew Moore 0:38

All right, and welcome to today's episode of How to MSP. I am your host, Andrew Moore, and today I have a very special guest. He is someone that I uh admire very much and I've known for, oh, I think over 10 years now or longer. Uh, this is Jack Lincourt of Microtime Computers out of the Boston area. Uh he is the VP of service delivery and a complete and total badass when it comes to processes and management and service delivery. And I am absolutely honored that he is on the show today. And we have the distinct honor of being the first podcast that Jack has ever been on. So that's actually super cool. So, Jack, uh, welcome to the pod.

Jack Lincourt 1:21

Hey, thanks a lot, Andrew. Really, really happy to be here. This is real exciting for me.

Andrew Moore 1:26

Awesome. So um, let's just start with real quick tell me um, you know, where are you at today? Where are you physically? Where does the podcast find you?

Jack Lincourt 1:36

Well, I'm just north of Boston. I'm actually in my home office right now. Came home just for you, because everyone that knows me knows I never leave the office. But you know what? For this, you got me at home. That way we have all the time in the world, no interruption.

Andrew Moore 1:49

What an well, no interruptions. I'm sure you'll probably get bored of the conversation and go like start playing guitar or one of the other like thousands of things that you do because you don't sleep. So

— Inside Jack's 30 Years of People and Process

Andrew Moore 2:00

I'm I I love that. Um, but thank you. It's an honor that that you took time away from the office for us. Uh let's start with, you know, why should people listen to you? Like, what have you been up to? Like, where did where did how did you get to where you are? Um, kind of give people a little background on your journey and and what you do for microtime.

Jack Lincourt 2:17

Well, currently I'm the VP of service delivery at Microtime, as you stated. Um basically I run the service delivery side, you know, whether it be uh the help desk, um I oversee our security team. Um we do have a project manager, so I don't oversee projects, but I do help, yeah, because you know, we know in service we help with everything. Um way I got here is uh I've been doing process and you know people management for over 30 years now. And, you know, it's what I have a passion in over time. Getting into IT 15 years ago became people, process, and tools. You know, we didn't have tools back in the day. It was people and process. And uh, and I've been able to find the right people, you know, manage to the right process to just help businesses succeed. And that's what really you know encourages me to move forward and hopefully encourages my teams to do well and succeed is, you know, teamwork and uh, you know, having a process to follow that can build your business and can make everyone happy and you know, you don't have too many cowboys, et cetera. And if you can find the right people, and that you know, process starts with finding the right people. That's a process too.

Andrew Moore 3:29

Yeah,

— How HireSelect Filters for Help Desk Hires

Andrew Moore 3:30

uh let's let's start digging into some of that. And and just for the sake of people who may not stick around to the end of the podcast, uh, I will just inform you that uh Jack is a hell of a musician and is uh uh the lead uh singer and uh plays guitar in a heavy metal or death metal or whatever, whatever it is that you're doing, but then you also uh play in like a really kick-ass cover band. So he's got like a man of many talent. So I'm excited about the conversation at the end of the podcast where we're gonna dig into music a little bit with Jack. So stick around for that. Um let's start with processes. Um, and let's talk about and let's talk about you know, people, processes, and tools. You had uh mentioned that it starts with people. Um I do want to get into process, so I misspoke there for a second. I want to start with people. How do you find the right people uh managing your service delivery team? What have you been doing over the last five years or so since um COVID to make sure that you're finding the right people in this post-COVID environment, whether that's here or remotely? What does that look like for you? How do you manage that team? Where do you find those people?

Jack Lincourt 4:41

I've actually been following the same process for like 13, 14 years now. Um we put out an assessment that's sent out by Criteria Corp., um hire select, as some people know it. And we've just got a battery of tests. It kind of just gives them some basic English and math, make sure that they speak the language and they can communicate. Um, it's got some typing on there. It's but the most important thing to us is the personality profile. For our company, we care more about their customer service skills and about their teamwork mentality than any technical skill or any other competency that they have. You know, when I do an interview with somebody, I'm just having a conversation with them. I talk almost nothing about IT. I want to know about the person that we're potentially bringing into the company because I want to make sure that whoever we bring in not only has the people process tools, your ideal teammate, you know, or ideal team player mentality, but I can sit them next to anybody else in the business, no matter what department they're in, and they can work side by side for a day, a week, a year, you know, et cetera. And if I can find someone that fits the culture that already wants to work in our business, wants to work in IT, wants to work in technology, well, we can teach them anything that we need to teach them, but you can't teach them how to be a good person. You can't teach them how to be a good teammate. That can come over time, but you know, we don't have time like you know, a Pac Wanna coach to teach someone how to learn teamwork. We're working with adults here. So I want to work with somebody that's already got a teamwork mentality, a team first mentality, and a customer service mentality. So everyone we hire, no matter what position we're looking for, has to have a customer service background and they have to have really good competencies when it comes to working with people. So the battery of tests that we send out will give us core competencies on just how good do they function as a human being, shall we say. But if they get past the basic averages there, we look at the personality piece and we're looking for someone that's, you know, more of an extrovert than an introvert, but not too far. We don't want someone, you can't stop talking. You got to find somebody that, you know, it's gonna actually be productive. Um, we're looking for someone that has a good sense of agreeableness. I want someone that thinks for themselves and will stand up for themselves when they believe that they found a good process. But I don't want somebody that's so hard-headed that they're not willing to try something that somebody else suggested. Um, and then of course, we're looking for someone with a good stress tolerance. You know, in the MSP world, everything is, you know, everything at once, and there's always a lot going on, and everything's an emergency. So I need someone that can handle that with a good sense of calmness without being so calm that they have no sense of urgency, or at least they don't convey a good sense of urgency. You know, we've got plenty of people that can take it calm, but we have to still have the confidence to explain to the partner they're working with or the teammate they're working with that, hey, we got this, but this is important. And you can find that in these batteries of tests, just in the personality profiles and with the other types of pieces that we do in the test. If somebody gets through those batteries of tests, which does take like an hour, hour and a half to go through that test, which some people don't want to go through. So test number one is, hey, did you get past the test? Right. And if we get through that and I say, hey, this looks like a good person to talk to, I do look at the resume and I want to make sure they have some form of chaos management. Did they work at, you know, uh drive-thru at uh Dunkin' Donuts? You know, did they work, you know, were they a bagger over at Stop and Shop? You know, or did they actually have MSP experience or some sort of office job experience where a lot was coming at them? And did they last at least six months in those roles? Someone that can deal with people and deal with chaos management, consider my help desk. You know, and that's what's important. If they have that type of competency to be able to handle chaos while also being a teamwork first mentality and be a good person to be around, I can teach you anything you need to learn when it comes to technology and helping people and using our tools. So that's where it all starts.

Andrew Moore 8:46

And so qu so question, I'm gonna jump in real quick. My question to you on that is are you hiring anyone that is already experienced to be a part of your service delivery team, or are you mostly focused on trying to raise people up? Like, are you looking at you had said, this is the kind of experience I want you to have, like working at Duncan or being a bartender or places where their service plus action? Are you saying those are the kind of people that you want? And you're not going to take an IT person maybe out of an existing internal service desk team or maybe from another MSP. Like, what does that look like for you on top of like who you're trying to bring in, but at what level do

— Why Microtime Won't Hire from Other MSPs

Andrew Moore 9:30

you bring them in in order to get them to the to the place that makes them successful with microtime?

Jack Lincourt 9:35

That's a great question. And I get that question often. We actually hire people with minimal to no experience. You know, we're looking for people that have that edge. They want to get in technology, but no one's given them the chance. Someone that maybe worked at like their school's IT department in college or in high school, someone that maybe worked for Geek Squad for a short time but can't find the real job, shall we say? Not to say Geek Squad's not a real job, but they're looking for that real, real stepping stone in IT. And, you know, someone that's invested in themselves. Maybe they went to college and graduated, maybe they're in college, you know, maybe they got some certification courses or some certification, you know, actual certs uh under their belt. We've got people that have come in that are, you know, fresh out of high school, and then we have other people that are changing careers in their 40s. And, you know, they've just really had a passion for technology, and no one's really given them the shot. And the way we find them is because we use a recruiter. And the recruiter basically just sends out our exam to lots of people. I get our assessment, I get a lot of assessments every week. Um, even if we're not looking, I say keep sending them year-round. I'm looking for that diamond in the rough all the time. Anyone that meets the right profile, I want to talk to. And if they're a good fit for us, can we find a place for them until the right role is ready for that? So I'm not looking for that person with lots of experience. People that come in from another MSP, that would be great, but they also come in with habits. They come in with expectations. Um, and I want to be able to kind of mold somebody. And, you know, the team likes to mold people. Everyone on my help desk came in the same way. They all came in as a level one tech with almost no experience, you know, if any at all. Um, maybe a cert, maybe a degree, maybe nothing, but the right aptitude and the right attitude. And because of that, when somebody comes in behind them, they're willing to train them. They're willing to mentor them. And the person I bring in needs to have the right mentality that if I hire somebody else in two or three months, they're gonna help mentor that person to learn the stuff they just learned. And everyone just keeps growing and keeps learning. And we just become a well, you know, well-rounded team of people that have lots of skills. Everyone's gonna want to go in their own direction on how they want to learn. Some people want to have a full pyramid of everything related to IT. Some people want to concentrate on networking, some want to concentrate on just server work, stuff like that. You know, some want to go on the cloud. But everyone has the core competencies. And what I want my help desk is to have a bunch of people or, you know, the right amount of people for our company to have the right core skills and then have interest elsewhere. Um, even if that interest is outside of IT or outside of our help desk, they still want to keep learning. You know, we're looking for hungry people. I said earlier, humble, hungry, and smart. You know, I need people to be hungry and stay hungry. You know, and so how do I feed that hunger? We put them in an MSP. You learn every day. We got people that have been with us 10, 15, 20 years and they learn something new every day because you know, the industry changes, tech changes, you know, IT is scary and it's exciting. You know, and I want people to feel that excitement every day. I want them to go home knowing that they learned something and that they helped people. And I want them to be excited about at least one of those things, you know. And um, so when we bring in people, we let them know up front you're starting in the same place that everybody else did. And because of that, you're gonna be working with people that want to help you, not just because they like helping people and they're excited to have a new team member, but it also means that if you're working with somebody else, you might be taking something from them that allows them to now do bigger and better things themselves.

Andrew Moore 13:27

So let's let's talk about bigger and better things and what happens on your service desk. Do you keep most of the people that you hire on the service desk or do they move into other departments? Do they see this as a career stepping stone and they move on to another organization? How do you see um the line of succession within the business and how do you feed other parts of the business um the talent that you develop there within the service delivery team?

Jack Lincourt 13:55

Perfect question. Now, so we have you know many departments in the company that people can move on to if they choose to do so. Um, when we bring in new hires, you know, we do ask them what they aspire to do. Things always change over time. Obviously, we got a lot of people when they first walk in the door, they're talking about, oh, I'm gonna get three certs in the first month, plus I'm gonna get some college courses while I'm working. And I'm like, slow down. I I know you mean that, and I've heard that before. I know that you have every desire and every ambition to do that, but you're gonna get so much learning throughout the day that by the end of the day, you may or may not be having any energy or having enough energy to go do some training. So over time, people's interests change. Um, I typically have very little turnover, if any, turnover. We don't really lose people very often. And if we do, it's normally because they moved out of the area or they went to go run an IT team someplace else. So I'm very proud of that. You know, I'm very proud that, you know, typically people either stay on my help desk because they enjoy the team they're on, they enjoy the customers that they're working with, and they simply like helping people. But we do have people that, you know, go beyond level one, level two, level three, which we don't really talk about much in our team. We're all just help desk. You know, we're here to help people. We can call everyone on a business, just say we're all customer search. That's what we do. You know, but some people like to have titles. I can call you a level three tech or a level three engineer, whatever you want to be called is fine. But if you aspire to go beyond our project team and you want to implement things, you want to actually get out on the road more than you do on the help desk, because our help desk people do dispatch. But if you want to get out on the road more and you know, actually implement, you know, infrastructure, um, by all means, there's an avenue there. You know, positions do open up there as we grow. We do have a central services team who handle security and proactive services. So we've had people leave the help desk and go actually build our security team. You know, the person that's essentially running our security team right now was a member of our help desk for, you know, two and a half years and had a great proclamity for security. They really love security and they were doing all kinds of research. And we're like, you know what, you'd be perfect for that team. And within a year, they were running that team. You know, I mean, that that they're terrific. And that's what we're looking for, people that stay driven. And if we find a spot that's going to suit you best and it's gonna be what's best for the company also, let's put you in there. You know, and for the most part, we have not really failed in a sense of putting somebody in a new department that they want to be in and having them not succeed because they know they have that avenue. And then what it tells everybody else in the help desk is that if you decide you want to work for another department, there is that opportunity. It may not be there all the time because you're not always hiring for certain positions. But as we grow and as they help us grow, you know, then those positions become available. One thing that I have been very pleased with with the help desk that we've grown here at Microtime is we have a group of people that actually get excited when we have a new customer. I've never worked in an organization that the help desk is excited to hear we have a new customer.

Andrew Moore 17:05

It's always more work. Oh, shit. Oh, there they go again, selling more stuff, right?

Jack Lincourt 17:12

I gotta learn, I gotta, I gotta help more people, more calls. You give, I can't believe this. Instead, they're interested in, oh, what new business are we doing? What new stuff can we learn about? You know, and and in the back of their head, they're also thinking as we grow, more people we can bring in over time. Now we have good processes, so you got to grow a significant amount before you bring a person in. But as we grow, you're gonna need more people on the project team. You're gonna need more people on your security team, you need more people over um in client account management. You know, so if somebody aspires to be in another position, they know the only way for that to happen is for us to keep growing. And how do we grow? We grow by maintaining the customers we have. How do we maintain the customers we have? Great customer experiences. Great customer experiences start with great customer service, with great people, with great process, with great team plays. You know, great documentation, you know?

Andrew Moore 18:06

Yeah, I love your shirt. Yeah, I think that's that's amazing. I and I'm gonna dig into that in in just a second. We start getting into processes, but I want to I'm gonna touch on something because uh I hear you, and I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here and say, Jack, that's amazing. I love what you're saying. Let's hire the right people, let's give them opportunities, um, let's make sure that that we're we're providing them the chance to learn and grow. But what does that actually mean? Like, what do I do as a service manager to make sure that my right off the street bartender who likes to work on computers on the weekend is actually going to be impactful and managing tickets on my team within 30 days, right? 60 days? Like, what does that look like? How do you get them where they need to be? Is it six months, 12 months? What do you see there as far as

— The 3-Month Training Program That Gets New Hires to 85%

Andrew Moore 19:00

your process for getting somebody from entry level to team impact high user experience?

Jack Lincourt 19:08

Well, the way we do have a training program, you know, not like in a training room or something like that, but we have a whole guide that says these are the items we want you to learn over your first three to four months. You know, it's pretty much a three to four month, you know, program. And it's not based on how fast you learn, because most people learn around the same rate, you know, close enough. It's really how fast we can train you, depending on how busy we are in the other areas. You know, as we all know, you bring in a new hire or several new hires, it's it's a load on the team. Now they slow down because they have to show you things and they have to help you. And so depending on how fast we can train you, within three to four months, which is everyone in our organization has always within three to four months gotten to what we'll call the 85% plateau. 85% of the tickets that come in should be able to be handled by anyone that I've had on my team for three to four months. And that also means I can put them on our on-call rotation because that means I can trust them to take care of tickets after hours, and they know their escalation points for you know when you know things that they can't handle. But what's important is that as the team grows, it also you know expands our on-calls, you know, uh group. So the team gets to be excited that, you know, it's an extra week longer before they're on call again, you know. And um, but the whole goal, and that's kind of what our team aims for, is that by definitely by the end of four months, this person is going to be on the schedule to be on their first on-call. And the team takes responsibility, not just the service manager, not just the service coordinator, not just the VP of service delivery, but the team, level one people, two people, three people, everyone on that team takes responsibility to getting that person to the level they need to be so they can be in that on-call rotation. And it doesn't mean it's just all about on-call. It's really all about if you can be on call, I can trust you with answering the phone. I can trust you with handling your own tickets, I can finally not worry about you picking up the phone and trying to help right away on something you have no business trying, because you now understand what you should be touching and what you shouldn't be. One of the biggest challenges we have in the beginning is, you know, we put people on the phone within the first couple of weeks. All we want to make sure is that they know how to use our ticketing system, ConnectWise. We want to make sure they know how to use our remote tools and all that. But if you can use ConnectWise and create a ticket and you know how to answer a phone and you can be friendly, you can answer a phone and create a ticket. Even if you think you can fix the problem, we have to be very stern. Don't try and fix anything. I don't want them dragging you into something that sounded like a password reset but turned into a whole sage update or something like that. And so if we can get people to start there and have some discipline, then over time we'll start trusting them to start making the decision. On yes, I can take them. So I'll start taking calls and saying, hey, this is just such and such. Can I take this one? In the beginning, we say, nope, let it go, create the ticket, and then we might have them call right back. You know, and that way, hey, you know, the customer gets used to talking to them. Um, but over those three months, they get more and more comfortable. They get more and more confidence. We build more and more confidence in them, and the team builds more confidence in them. And then of course, that means they build more confidence in themselves. More confidence, anyone can walk in and play the part of a confident person. But when you're actually confident in yourself and you can actually do a good job and you know you're going to do a good job, even if what they just threw at you is baffling. You've never heard of any such thing. Right. But you can be like, wow, that's interesting, you know, as opposed to, oh my God, I've never heard that before. You know, you can't do that in the first week or two. So if you try and help people too early, you get stuck there. So it might be surprising to hear that with for within three to four months, any IT issue that comes in our door, you know, or 85% of the IT issues that come through that phone or come into the ticketing system can be handled by someone that's never touched IT prior. It just goes to show the dedication the team puts in to training people to be prepared to handle it and also the ability of the person to know when to escalate things. And when we escalate in our company, we don't give it to somebody else. We stay on the ticket and that person teaches them how to do it, unless it's something that is far beyond scope. We're not going to have somebody programming a switch or something like that, you know, on a phone call. That's just you know, silly. Right. You know, but if somebody has a VPN type problem and someone is familiar with it but hasn't done it before, our goal is to make sure by the time that ticket's done, they know how to do this and they can do it again next time.

Andrew Moore 23:48

So when you are looking at that first three to four months, I'm fairly certain that you have either a spreadsheet or a project template in ConnectWise or something, that you're sitting down with the individual and saying, here's all the things that we're going to expect you to do and when you're going to do it. Is that something that you have a learning management solution that accompanies it? Is it knowledge-based articles? Is it video content? Like, how do you make sure that you are optimizing their time as they begin training and making sure that you're creating consistency in the training deliverables in order to get them to the point where they're following the processes that you put in place? What does that look like when you're trying to bring that person on board?

Jack Lincourt 24:36

Plus, it's all about templates. It's all about documentation, it's all about having a process. So onboarding a new employee is just like onboarding a new client. You have to have a checklist and you have to go over that checklist and you have to follow up on that checklist regularly. So in the training guide that we have, you know, obviously it's you know a project template, you know, Inconnect-Wise, and there's a lot of redundancy. So if you are working on subject A, you know, week two, you're probably also looking at it week three, week five, et cetera, with different people to make sure you've got this down. So week two, you're just getting familiarity with it. You're talking to a person that they're working on a ticket. Week three, it might be, hey, give this a try, I'll walk you through it. By week five, hopefully it's just a checklist that you say, yep, I've done that and you've shown somebody how to do it. No, you might go in week two and take care of all three of those steps because you've had enough opportunity. You might be in week 15 and finally get to step two because it just hasn't been an opportunity to learn that item. And some items you really need to have a ticket. You need to have a real life scenario to learn that item. So the objective for us is to make sure that we have a checklist of things we need you to learn and make sure that we have tickets assigned to you and to other team members to make sure that you learn them. Sometimes the ticket is really, it's not even a training ticket. Sometimes it's a service coordinator knowing that next time XYZ type ticket comes in, I need to add our new hire to that ticket along with someone to show them how to do it. And then we check it off the list. You know, and that way by the end of the period of time, we can say they've done this, this, this, this, this. Okay, we didn't touch this, but that's very rare. So it's okay. You know, we can show that to them when that opportunity arises. And the reason I say the three to four months is because sometimes if you're really bobbed or if you're really short-staffed, it's hard to take the time to show people. So sometimes it takes longer to train the busier you are. And um, so it might take four months, it might take a little bit more, but typically within the four months, you get through that whole checklist. It's like a 12-page thing if you print it out. And it doesn't say how to do anything. It literally says here's what we need, and here's some bullets under it of the subject matter that we want you to learn while learning X. You know, for an easy example would be if you're learning Connect-Wise, that's obviously first week, you know, day one, you're learning Connect-Wise, you know, university. But if you're learning Connect-Wise, you need to learn how to create a ticket. You need to have, you know, what are configurations, you know, all the little things that go into it. How do you bundle a ticket together? And, you know, things that become second nature when you're using it, but I need to get you that familiarity right up front. And then we go over it again a few days later. What do you remember? Because you need to start creating tickets now. And I need you to be able to find the customer. I need you to be able to find the end user. I need you to be able to add the configuration with the proper person's machine if you can find it in there, you know, things like that. And so the redundancy of going over it over and over again makes sure that it starts to, you know, really uh, you know, be learned. It actually is being absorbed. And there's a lot to learn because you're learning systems, you're learning tools, you're learning processes, and you're learning how to do IT, you're learning about new customers, you're learning uh how to talk to people. There's so much for someone to learn, which is why we need people that are so driven, that they're excited to be here. Um, earlier on, when we were talking about people and, you know, how do we find the right people and how do we make sure that they grow? By using a hiring agency instead of having people just apply directly to us. Um, and I'm gonna say this, you know, in the most respectful way possible. By using an agency, you're finding people that are struggling to find a job. Okay, you know, if they had no problem finding a job, they wouldn't need the agency. If they had people knocking on the door, they wouldn't be using an agency. So by use knowing that we're using an agency to help us find people, we know that by giving them an opportunity, we're giving them an opportunity that others are not giving them. We're also giving them the opportunity to learn on a team that most companies don't have the luxury to do, um, or the time, or the patience. They want people that can sit down and be productive. They're paying them to be productive. They're not paying them to learn. Well, we are paying you to learn because we're paying you to be a good team member, not just to be a ticket monster, you know. So we also get a lot of people that are just grateful that we gave them that opportunity. And so we get longevity with them. They might get other offers because now they've learned a lot. They spent a year or two at an MSP. They've gotten some certifications in the meantime, which of course, one of the main things that brings people in for us is that we have a certification program. You know, every cert you get, you get a raise. And we're paying for your training, and we're paying for the whole bit, and you're getting a raise when you get the cert. So it allows you to invest in yourselves while we invest in you and you get to grow. And a lot of companies just don't have that either in the budget or they don't have it, just it's not what they do. You need to sit down and produce, and your expectation is that you keep up with best practices. Uh, you know, and we have that expectation, but we also are going to help you get there. And by bringing in people that way, uh we we gain their respect and and the love of the people that come in. And um, can't think of the right term right now, you know, but for the most part, we end up with with good people that appreciate who they work for and who they work with. And so they end up being that same person to the next one that comes behind.

Andrew Moore 30:15

You know? Yeah, let me let me double-click on something real quick that you were just talking about. Um, you were in one we were having a conversation and you had talked to me once briefly, and I don't know if you're still doing this, about how when you were using the recruiting firm, they would bring you a candidate, you would make an offer to that candidate, and I believe that the candidate would start at a certain either hourly or base salary with the expectation that they would achieve a certain level of proficiency over 90 days, six months, whatever that was. And at that point, we'll call it a more advanced position or permanent position, was then presented

— The Certification Compensation Model

Andrew Moore 31:00

to them as a reward for finishing that part of what they were doing. And then they were put into a track where you would say, you get this certification, we will give you additional monies or bonuses, right? So you were putting people in positions to achieve things for the business, but at the same time, they were constantly being put in positions to receive additional compensation for their effort. Are you still doing that? And if you if you are, can you explain it? Or if you're not, can you explain what you are doing when it comes to that? Because you did say bonus on or raise on certification. So I'm not sure that all MSPs are doing that or have found success with that. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Jack Lincourt 31:40

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so we have a base salary. Everyone starts at the base salary and then we add to that. And the base salary you have is probably a good eight to $10,000 less than what they would make someplace else starting. But you add that, you any certs they have or their education. So if you have a college degree, you know, if you have a bachelor's in any kind of technical field, you know, we're going to add $4,000 onto your starting rate automatically. And $4,000 obviously per hour. So it's like a dollar ninety-six an hour, you know, something like that. Um and then each cert you have adds to that also. So any of your comp T asserts, we currently pay $3,000 for any of the comp T asserts. So you get an A plus and an N plus and a security plus, you just got $9,000, you know, just add it to your base salary, you know, on top of your college degree. Um, if you have one. If you have nothing, you're starting at the base salary. But we're going to put you on track to get these certifications. Now we have other certifications that are a bit lower. You got Google search, you got Apple search, you got phone certs, you know, Meraki search, you got all kinds of certifications you can get. And it's all listed out. We have a whole certification metrics that lists out all the certs we have, what the expectations of them are, how to get them, and how much of an increase you're going to get for each one of those. The Microsoft certification path starts off with prereqs. Then it gets into a little bit harder, a little bit harder, as is anyone that's gone for like the Azure certs and stuff. You know, each level gets really more in depth. And some of those certs you're getting, you know, $7,000, $10,000 increase for getting some of those certs. They're hard. It might take you a year to get that cert, you know, but there's a great reward at the end. Not only are you getting, you know, a financial reward, but now you have enough knowledge that you're helping the team and you're the go-to person. People like being the go-to person. We're looking for that person that's driven, right? Humble, hungry, smart, right? We want people that are proud that people come to them for this. We don't want people that constantly have to ask for help. You know, so people that go and get certified have that sense of, hey, now I have this knowledge and I can share that with others that either couldn't get that cert, haven't had the time for it, or are on that track also. But to go back to where we started, you have your base salary, then you add on to it each piece. Now, if you have three level one certifications, we'll call level one like an A plus, N plus, et cetera, um, or some of the other ones we talked about, and you add on a level two certification. Level two certification would be one of those higher, you know, uh Microsoft certifications, maybe a CCNA, um, you know, areas like that where you people would get um the MCSA of of old, which is now like some of these, you know, Microsoft. You're dating yourself. I'm dating myself, right? You know, but you go and get one of those level two certs and at least three level one certs, and you now have the official title. As long as you are mentoring the team and you're still, to be honest with you, you're still part of our team. We consider you a mentor and a trainer and a part of our team. We used to say, and you have to also be a certain type of person to be considered a level two technician, right? So you get your three level ones and your one level two, and you level up. You become a level two tech, you know, level two tech engineer, whatever you want to call yourself, because we're not big on titles. Um, and we'll give you another $4,000 on top of what you've just made for that last cert, and we'll call you a level two. When it comes to level three, you get two level twos, two, well, two level two certs, one level three, sir. Level three, sir, you know, some of those higher end, you get CCMP now, right? Things like that, or one of those $10,000 certs you're getting to become an Azure Expert Enterprise XYZ. And you get a $6,000 raise there on top of whatever cert you just got. So you may get a cert for $10,000 and end up with a $16,000 raise. So, yes, we are starting lower than most companies, but we're giving people the opportunity, if they want to invest in themselves, to skies the limit, up to $10,000 a year in cert pieces. Now, the extra things for like the level ups, those aren't in, you know, that that's extra. But for cert increases, we give up to $10,000 a year in CERTs. So if somebody starts at a lower rate, like at $38,000 or something like that, they're with us for three years. They can be making almost $70,000 or more by just getting CERTs. And on top of that, we do have increases at the end of the year when we raise rates to our customers for cost of living. We do provide that increase that we charge our customers gets spread out to our employees. So that way they also have a chance each year, if they couldn't get any CERC, but they're still killing it out there. I want to be able to reward people for a good job. We don't only provide increases for certifications because we understand some people have families, second jobs, other responsibilities, or are just poor test takers and aren't able to get certs. But if there's still a great employee doing a great job, I don't want to penalize them. You know, so I want to make sure we do have ways of rewarding people outside of just the cert program.

Andrew Moore 36:42

That's fantastic to hear. And it gives some some framework to what you guys do. So I appreciate you sharing that. I I hear a lot in the way that you talk about things that it's a given that you have a process for something, right? So I don't want to ignore the fact that specifically with you, I think your most impressive skill is your ability to take a complicated system and break it into logical pieces. I I was gonna I pause there for a second. If not if not large logical pieces, you get very granular with your processes. You get very atomic with the ability to look at a process and break it down to its

— Reading 5,000 Tickets to Build the Template Library

Andrew Moore 37:30

most fundamental components. Can you talk to me about how you're doing that with your service delivery team and what you do when it comes to how they're working tickets, you know, what your expectations are of them and and how you're building their processes. Like what do you do to make sure that everybody is working at the same level that you are? Because you are very detail-oriented when it comes to stuff like that.

Jack Lincourt 37:54

Um I'm gonna say it's it comes from being willing to do brute force, meticulous research. In the beginning, when I first started um my journey managing IT teams with no IT background, what I did was I had looked at five years worth of tickets from the company that I was working for. And I took a look and saw what did people do? What did people document? You know, how did things you know connect? You know, what was considered a network issue, what was considered a server issue, what was considered uh, you know, an ISP type issue. And then I would put, I put them all into categories and I figured, okay, well, tech A can do this in 20 minutes, but tech B, C, and D typically take about an hour. So is tech A taking shortcuts and not really fixing the problem? Or these other three techs need some training? And I can use tech A to show that. So what I did was I kind of looked at all those different pieces to say, how long should it really take to handle this type of problem? And can we, number one, can we automate it? You know, that's always first, right? Can we automate it? You know, but if we can't automate it, you have to actually do some work. What's the best process to get it done quickly where it's also solving the root problem? One of the things I also did was make sure that if tech A took care of it in 10, 20 minutes, that we didn't have that same ticket coming up for that same customer within the next couple of weeks or months. You know, obviously it just took months to do this. You went through five years worth of tickets. And but what I was able to do is I was able to build within ConnectWise a type, subtype, and item categorization that showed how things are related and then build templates. When ConnectWise, you can build a template based on the the item of the type, subtype, and item. So if somebody has something like a slow workstation, and I can see that tech A handles these slow workstations within 35 minutes every time. That's always done in 15 to 35 minutes. What steps do they take? Do they have a process? And if they don't have it written down, can I get them to write it down? Can I work with them on that? Document that, put that into a template, and then every time we have a slow workstation ticket, I can have that template just automatically populate into the ticket with instructions and give that ticket to anyone on the team that's been here for three months, three weeks, whatever the time being is, depending on what expertise is needed to get down that list. And so I've had people that haven't worked much in IT work on things like slow workstation or low disk space, um, you know, you know, printer issues, which we know there's 500 things you can try with a printer, you know. But if you have a checklist to go through, it shortens the time. You don't have to try and reinvent the wheel all the time. You don't have to jump on YouTube or Google to find the information or try and look through 400 tickets to see who worked on this last. Now, of course, we want people to look into the documentation system by Tikulu. We want them to look in the ticketing system to see if anyone's had a previous ticket of the same item. But it's a lot easier if my service coordinator triages a ticket and boom, there's instructions right there. By doing this, it also allows our newer techs to try these processes and see if they work. Because if they get to step three and then they broke something, I expect them to say, hey, I tried to do this and it rebooted their server. Oh my goodness, right? You know, so we got to change this template, right? So instead of going through 150 templates every six months to make sure they work, I give them to my new techs. People might say, oh my God, that's scary. You're giving a new person, you know, the ability to break things. Hey, I want them to spread their wings. I want them to trust the process. I want them to know that they can make a mistake and we have their back. And if I have to call a customer to say someone was following an established process and it caused a problem at your practice or at your business, I have no problem making that phone call because we've already got a good relationship with them. They know we run on process. They know we work with people that are following steps to do it the right way. So something bad happens, they know we're going to fix that process so it doesn't happen again. Having that credibility with our customers is key to growing people because it means that the customer doesn't get mad at the tech for making a mistake. Instead, they dealing with the issue that happened, they'll work with management to make sure it doesn't happen again. And then they're still perfectly happy working with the technician that was following process.

Andrew Moore 42:24

No, that's that I love how you put that about how if you've got a process for how you're handling an issue typically, and you're following that process and it results in a negative outcome, that's a much easier conversation to have with a client because it really is. Like it's way better than like, oh yeah, that guy was cowboying, or um, or you know, not we don't have a process for that. Like that doesn't instill trust in clients when it when you're like, Yeah, you know, we just kind of figured we sent it to this guy because we thought he was smart. You could figure out he's gonna figure it out. Um that's one piece of it.

Jack Lincourt 43:03

You know, a other, you know, what I say brute force is because I try a lot of things. When we come up with what type of metrics do we care about, what is actually important? Everyone's always looking at ticket counts and how many tickets do we close and what's your kill rate and things like that. You know, I'm looking for repeat problems. You know, I'm looking for surveys, I'm looking for first touch resolution. And first touch resolution that ends with no repeat call. First touch resolution means nothing to me if they're gonna call back tomorrow. It's the same issue. Right. And that's why I say customer service is key, is because I want people to embedded in them is to find a way to prevent this from happening again, to keep the customer from being frustrated and not being able to work, but also keeping our team from having to fix the same thing every single day.

Andrew Moore 43:50

Right.

Jack Lincourt 43:50

You know, the less tickets on that board, the more time they have to learn, to take their time on other tickets, or to be honest with you, enjoy the team. We have a good team that gets along with each other. I love hearing them talk about video games and movies and sports. I love hearing those conversations because it doesn't mean that we're slow. It doesn't mean we have nothing to do. It means that they actually have a minute minute to breathe. And they're not overwhelmed and just constantly 400 tickets on the board at all times. They're all very busy. It's still an MSP. There's never a moment where someone has less than 10, 20, 30 tickets on that board. But I still want people to know that what they do matters. And if they can, you know, put the time in to find a root cause, fix it, share that with the team. And that way everyone can do it faster. It means they can concentrate on other things that help them learn and feel smarter. People want to feel smart, right? And you know, especially in IT and technology, you get driven people, they want to feel important. And customers make them feel important every day with all the thank yous and oh, you did so great. And thank you so much for following up. That makes you feel good. But how often do you get to walk away saying that your process you built or that information you found out really helped us as a team? A lot of times the satisfaction you get from your team members is way more rewarding than the satisfaction you get from any customer that says thank you. You know, and that's building that.

Andrew Moore 45:19

That's 100%. That's 100%. I I was listening to a podcast recently where the gentleman had talked about positive reinforcement in in systems, just in general. And the most important creation point for a habit is positive reinforcement. And that positive reinforcement often is more impactful when it comes from uh a team member, right? Or you're in a team environment and someone is calling out a positive behavior, right? And so they use it in the military all the time. As much as you see them getting yelled at for doing goofy stuff, they're they're constantly being told, hey, good job, hey, you did that right. Like, hey, uh, you're encouraged to tell the man in the in the hole with you, you know, hey, thanks for doing that the right way. It's a it's a really important part of creating a dynamic team that can that can flex. And and to that point, I do want to ask you this from a team perspective, before we kind of dive into tools, uh where what do you do with your team to ensure that they are operating together as a as a group where they're

— Team Dynamics, Lunch and Learns, and "Pledge Allegiance to the Clients"

Andrew Moore 46:30

all moving in the same direction at the same way? Are you doing daily stand-ups? Do you have dashboards? Um, do you keep Teams channels open? All of the above, none of the above. What do you do to ensure proper focus for the people that are that are part of your team?

Jack Lincourt 46:48

Um, I'm gonna tell you up front that we do plenty of things to make sure that moving forward, and none of it matters, but I'll explain that at the end. Okay. Okay. All right. So, yes, we have dashboards. We have a whole, we have 12 screens at the front that have all the metrics and all the graphs and all the cool things that show, you know, what's going on in the world. Uh techs don't care about that. You know, they care about their board. You know, we got Nileer, so it shows how many tickets they touched, how many they closed. They care about that because they compete with each other. You know, you know, we've got our scorecards up there, which people do. They care about the scorecards. They want to make sure that they have they're up in the top tier. They don't want to be at the bottom of the scorecards. It's right up in the front so people can see it. Um, but do people look at it all that often? Not really. I'll explain why later. Um, we also have a Teams chat, just like you and me looking at each other. Anyone that's working remotely is on a Teams chat with the rest of the team. So we can see them at all times and they can see us at all times. And if we need to communicate, just undo your mute, you talk, you talk about whatever. If something major is going on and some site is down and we're gonna expect a bunch of phone calls, we make sure whoever's on our Teams chat is alerted. So that way nobody, we don't have three people working the same problem. You know, we're all working as one unit and we're all communicating well. No one feels like they're on an island and no one feels it's like big brother. I don't care if I'm looking at an empty chair because you took a break. I just know that I shouldn't call you right now when someone's looking for you. You know, it's just like if you were in the office. Um, so we want to make sure there's unity. Everyone feels like that part of the team, no matter where they are. I want to make sure people have access to the metrics at all time to see how many tickets we have, how many things we've done today, what's our first touch resolution today, what's our average time per ticket today, stuff like that or for the week and for our scorecards. You know, but what really helps the team, and it might be more unique nowadays after COVID, but what helps us is that we're together. We're in the same room together. Our help desk, we all sit together. We're all facing forward, not all locked up in cubicles where people can kind of hide and do their own thing with their headphones on. We all communicate. If I yell across the room, everyone's gonna hear it. You know, a phone call comes in, everyone's involved and knows, oh, I'll grab that. That's my person, I'm waiting for them. Whereas in if everyone worked from home or if they were locked up in a cubicle and and weren't really paying attention, you may end up with you know discombobulation of you know, multiple people working the same problem or things being resolved and new types of things, you know, like uh resolutions coming out that people don't know because they didn't read the latest team's chat or something like that. So by being present for the team members as well as management, you know, I sit there with our help desk, our service manager, our service coordinator. We're all in the room together. We communicate together. You know, we joke with each other, we make fun of each other, all that good stuff. You know, we make sure that we actually communicate as friends. You know, we want to make sure that we all have one goal, and that's to take good care of the customer because the better care we take care of the customer, the more customers we have, the better we're all doing. Because the more customers and the better the customers are doing, hey, the more money I have to give you guys raises and keep growing the team, right? As for Scrums, I do a weekly lunch and learn. That lunch and learn, you know, we order lunch for the team, you know, et cetera. And the lunch and learn is done right in our help desk. And anyone that's remote, I just carry around my laptop and walk around while we talk. And it might be anything that's, you know, from the new tool that we're implementing. It could be uh this customer is being absorbed by such and such customers. So now we manage both of them, um, but under a different name. It could be uh we're bringing in this new customer in two months, and we're real excited about XYZ. So, you know, let's talk about that. You know, we took on a new customer in Ohio. You know, we're in Boston, you know, so taking on a customer in Ohio, we got them because someone in our building that's a small customer, you know, or a smaller customer, we do that service, and they have a sister corporation that's huge across the country, and they convince them to use us. Well, that company also runs a race team on the side, and they allow our team to go to like NASCAR races.

Andrew Moore 50:52

That's cool.

Jack Lincourt 50:52

So, like, you know, so it's like you get to get them excited about things, you know? So anything I can get the team excited about or make sure they're you know they understand, okay, we use ThreatLocker, okay, ThreatLocker's putting out a new update. You guys should be aware that this is changing. Right. Okay, that's a standard item, right? You go over that. Maybe I have someone from my central services team come in and do a training on what those updates look like. Or if we're implementing a new email security tool, let's go over that in our lunch and learn as the topic of the day. I might have one of our technicians say, We've been working on printers a lot, and it looks like some of you people implementing these printers are not doing it the right way. And I'd like to go over the right way to do this. Let's make sure that we're all on the same page. And this is where you find the document that I put in there two years ago that no one seems to be able to find. You know, things like that. Yeah.

Andrew Moore 51:38

Common problem with knowledge bases for sure.

Jack Lincourt 51:41

Exactly. You know, sometimes it's just announcing somebody got a new CERT and it's, you know, so-and-so's birthday, and it's so-and-so's, you know, three-year anniversary this week. Let's celebrate. You know? And you know, so we try and get together at least once a week to go over those items. I do have a quarterly one where I go over important things that everyone seems to forget. Things like, don't forget to put together a sales survey whenever you're trying to hand something to the account manager to purchase something. Give them some help here, you know? Things like, you know, before you go on dispatch, call when you're on your way. Things that people just kind of feel like they're being done, but you have to remember that they're being done. And so I got this checklist of things that once every three months I go over. So when I'm doing my lunch and learn that week, if I don't have many topics, well, then I got plenty of topics. I got this quarterly thing that we go over. Um, that keeps the team in tune and, you know, engaged. Um, I don't do it here, but in my previous two companies, I used to do a pledge of allegiance that was like a pledge of allegiance to the clients. So we would actually start the lunch and learn, but also I would sometimes in those companies do a daily like morning scrum. And I'd start by doing this big slap to the chest to get everyone's attention. So it's a big slap. And then I'd say I pledge allegiance to the clients of, you know, and I'd I'd go on to this whole spiel. Um, I'd say it out loud, but then it gives away like, you know, half-hour customers and the old companies and stuff.

Andrew Moore 53:04

Yeah, yeah.

Jack Lincourt 53:04

Um, but it was really cool because in the middle of the pledge, I'd stop dead and I'd point at someone and expect them to give me the next line. So it makes sure that they stay engaged and everyone would be laughing at each other when they forget, you know, the the different lines, et cetera. And sometimes I'd have the whole room do the pledge because it's just funny. It's just, you know, some people would think it's silly, you know, but it it was a way to make sure they stay engaged in when we're doing weekly learning.

— The Tools That Made It: Rewst, Cyft, and a Word on AI

Andrew Moore 53:30

Okay, that's that's that's funny. I actually never heard that story. So kudos to you for being and I think that's an important part of what you'd mentioned about the service desk and and doing operations in an MSP is we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. I mean, we need to be serious about what we do because if we're entrusted with, you know, businesses' technology and their well-being. But at the same time, you know, this is a hard business. And the more we can be self-deprecating as leaders and help our team to, you know, come in in the mornings and take a breath and enjoy each other's company and try to find some um point of entertainment on a daily basis. I I think that's a that's an admirable way of conducting yourself as a as an operations manager. So I um I believe in that as well. But before we um uh close out, I want to spend a few minutes talking about tools. So, you know, you talk about people, you talk about processes. Let's dig into tools for just a minute. Um I know that you're not uh you're not one of those pers persons that uh chases shiny objects. So I know when you do find a tool that it's usually very specific and purpose-driven because your processes are so tight, I feel like you have a huge uh focus on identifying a potential issue within that process and using a tool to change it in a way that's a more positive outcome for your team or your client. Can you talk a little bit about how you look at tools, if I'm right in my assumption there? And then what tools you found recently or that you find to be invaluable to providing service to your clients?

Jack Lincourt 55:13

Great. Well, I that's you are accurate. Um I I don't believe in adding any tool unless it brings value to the team and value to our our clients. And you know, so recently, you know, the past you know year, year and a half, we've brought in a couple tools that have really made a difference. Um, one of them is Roost. Um Roost, many people know Roost uh you know, um, for automation. And because it is integrated with most of the tools we have, we've been able to build a lot of automations that have really helped a lot of teams. They've really helped our central services team to automate so many processes that you know their job really is monitoring now instead of having to fix a bunch of things because the tool is finding the problem, sending whatever this the quick fix is. You get the problem if the quick fix didn't work. It's helped our whole billing process, um, collections process, procurement. Um, it's helped the help desk in some ways, it's helped me in a bunch of ways how to move tickets in bulk, um, how to find things. Um, some of the workflow rules you can't do in ConnectWise, you can do in Roost. So everything from getting in touch with your um our on-call during specific hours instead of just during such and such for certain types of issues. Um, Roost has been huge for us. And the best part about Roost is it's kept our CEO, Doug Smith, engaged. He's excited about it. He's he does it. He's the one that runs that whole piece. And Doug's excited about it. Yeah. I mean, seeing seeing how much he does in there and how much he's learned and how excited he is about it energizes the rest of the team. Everyone's excited when Doug's excited, you know? And you know, so he has a team of people now that do that with him. I'll be going to aust university, Rooster University myself, or CluckU, as they call it. Um because um, you know, I want to find out how we can automate the simple things so our team can be concentrating on, you know, the hard of things. Um, so that's one of the tools that, you know, we looked at for a quite a while, and but we knew someone had to own it. You know, you can't just put a tool in place and say it's gonna work. Uh, a lot of people talk about the processes that I've put in place over the years, whether it be certification metrics, it could be the um responsibility metrics, uh, it could be all the templates and and all the workflow rules. Well, you need someone to man that. You need someone to actually take ownership of that, make sure they're always working, and make sure that they evolve. So having someone like Doug to own Roost and keep people engaged in it and moving that forward. I mean, he's actually implemented things with other tools that weren't in Roost that are now in Roost. You know, um, he's even merged ways of getting different ticketing systems to communicate when they didn't before. You know, when you're working with like a downstream vendor who has internal IT with their own ticketing system and making it so when we enter things, it shows up in their ticketing system so we can be transparent, as opposed to having to document in two places. That saves a tremendous amount of time, effort, and frustration. You know, so that's one of the tools that we found, but we had to think about and kind of look at for a long time and find an owner of it before we put in place. Another one is SIFT, CYFT. SIFT is a program that works with a couple of different ticketing systems, and it allows you to just talk into your phone and it will find the ticket, add the documentation, change your, you know, the types of type and item. It'll change the status, it'll close the ticket if you want, um, it'll create tickets, et cetera. So for the people on the road that really struggle to do real-time ticketing, because everything with us, it's real-time ticketing. You know, we want to make sure that you know you put your information in as soon as possible. So someone has a question, or if you walk away from your desk or you go to your next dispatch, we don't want someone saying, hey, are we all set and nobody knows because they can't reach you. SIFT allows somebody that while they're walking around and someone grabs them and says, Hey, can you fix this too? Or hey, can you do whatever? And you're like, I really can't. I'm in the middle of such and such. You can literally just click on the app on your phone, say a few words, say, hey, customer A, end user Y, you know, here's the problem. It'll create the ticket, it'll put it right in the system, and the help desk can help them. Or if they help them on the spot, they can put the information in. They can even say, I worked on it from 312 to 328. Please add a time record, please set the status to closed, uh, you know, et cetera. And it doesn't just do all that for you. It actually summarizes everything you did. It puts it into a bullet form, it puts it into an email template that you can send to the customer to recap what you did. So, and and it's beautiful. It works terrific.

Andrew Moore 59:50

That's awesome. I I think we talked about that one of the last times I saw you face to face at like a, I think it was like the last TBG conference that we were at a couple of years ago, and you were telling me you had just started using it. So it sounds like it's come a long way.

Jack Lincourt 1:00:04

It has. It's I I love that program. I they also have one that if you're using a soft phone, you can have it listen to your phone call and it'll recap the whole phone call and update your whole ticket and give you something that shows the tech steps you did, here's the steps you didn't do, here's some suggestions, and send a message off to the customer to let them do a recap of everything you did. Um it's it it's really it's a really good program. I do highly recommend it. And but those are some of the tools that we put in because they help us. Now, most of my help desk who's sitting in front of a computer that's sitting there helping people all day, certainly don't need the app to talk into to do that. That's really for people on the road. But the other uh program they have called SAM is the one that can listen to the calls and do that piece. So we're integrating that now. We're actually getting the whole company on that, not just the help desk, because it'll help our sales team. It'll help our account management team. Because how many calls does your client account manager have where they take all kinds of stuff and they're trying to write down all these notes? You know, it would be nice to have to just drop right into a ticket and have all you have to do is lit waiting for you.

Andrew Moore 1:01:07

Yeah, no, that's that's totally kick ass. And so the last thing about tools I want to ask is it sounds like there's AI that's integrated into Sysf and Sam, where are you seeing AI in your service delivery team? Like how are you guys utilizing? Are you utilizing it yet? Are you prepared for it? Like what are you seeing and how are you uh starting to approach that?

Jack Lincourt 1:01:30

We're we're still an entry level, I guess you call for that. We've you know in investigated, we've researched it. Some people on the team will use ChatGPT or they'll use uh, you know, the different things built into the system, like pilot, you know, just uh to help with, you know, how do I word this and what's the best way to do that? Um, or even, hey, give me some tech notes on XYZ. Um we've looked into some integrations into ConnectWise from ConnectWise and from other tools that will help us, but I haven't implemented any yet because I haven't found anyone that I'm as comfortable with like I was with SIFT and with Roost. You know, we've got a lot of different tools that seem to do similar things. And until I find one that blows my socks off in a demo that I can justify the cost of yet another tool, we won't be implementing that because we got to do it, you know, team-wide. You know, and that's it's a lot of investment, not just in money, but in time to get people to believe in it. A big piece with us is we need the team to believe in the tools that we have if we expect them to use that. You know, and if we're going to use a tool, we want to use every aspect of that tool. You're paying a hefty price for these tools. Why would you only use one piece of it? Use everything that's possible in there. And and that needs buy-in, not just from the person that says this is the right tool or the manager, but from the people on the front line that are actually using that tool.

Andrew Moore 1:02:46

No, I I like that philosophy because I feel like there are a lot of tools where recently they've been adding AI into the tool. So it's like an existing tool, and they're like, now with AI. And you're just like, is it really? And then, you know, does it really help me and how does it make my life better? I think we're gonna see a huge shift in the next 18 to 24 months of AI-first tools that are solving very specific problems within the service delivery ecosystem that are gonna be way more micro-targeted. And I think those are gonna be probably of much more value to people like you who are very process-oriented. So you know exactly what you need, such as this SIFT product. So, like, I have a very specific problem because it's creating issues that fall outside of my SLAs or my real-time ticketing and data hygiene requirements. And so I need to have something that allows these team members to actively be able to participate uh in the real-time ticketing systems, even though their current work prevents them from being able to do that the way that I need it. So I I feel like it's coming. And so I have cautioned my clients and on my consulting side, too, is yeah, let's look at some AI stuff. And I know that there are a lot of investment firms out there that are asking the report codes or the companies that they've invested in in some capacity to go out and implement AI. I I I think there's a place for it. I caution people to make sure that their processes are tight before they go in and start integrating AI because I feel like when you do that, you potentially exacerbate a problem you didn't know you had. Right. Like it could make you could be a lot faster at screwing stuff off screwing stuff off than than you know, if that makes sense.

Jack Lincourt 1:04:31

No, 100%. And in the big piece is as we get better in AI, we need to start selling our customers AI tools on how to help them with their business. But first we need to learn how can it help our business before we can learn how can it help your business. So we have a very concentrated effort to learn the best ways to do this and only implement when we're really confident. And then once we've learned ways, and in the process, we are learning things that can help our customers. And what's important to us is that even if it's not going to help us, we're still learning about tools that may be able to help others. So we keep in, you know, bullet points. Don't forget, go back to that one, because that really might help law firms. This one might be really good for accounting firms. This is really good for hospitals or dentists, you know. And as we learn those, um, we want to get to know the programs ourselves first and use it because we have to support it. Simply implementing something is a very small piece of what you do for for your partners. What's really important is actually being able to support it when they need help. You know, so I can't just put something out there and just hope that my help desk just figures it out.

Andrew Moore 1:05:36

Right.

Jack Lincourt 1:05:36

You know, and that's why I say the buy-in. Uh, the big piece with all the tools is we bring it up in our lunch and learns and tell our team ahead of time about it. Hey, this is what we're going to do. Do you have any questions? Do you want to look at this? Do you have any, you know, concerns? Um, we want them to know that part of the process because if we don't have that buy in, they're not going to use it. And then, you know, we're just going to have grumbling people. I don't want to have a grumbling team for any reason, especially for stuff that we're trying. Implement. And I'm sure we've all worked in a place where someone comes in on some Monday morning and says, new process, we're doing this now. And it, you know, and you're like, wait, what? New tool. Now you need to learn this. Forget everything else you knew. You know, that's that's a lousy way to find something out. And it causes a lot of internal strife. And I don't need that kind of stress.

Andrew Moore 1:06:20

Doug just got back from IT Nation and he's he's got this new thing that he bought, and we're going to implement it next week.

Jack Lincourt 1:06:26

Yep. That's that's I dealt with a good amount of that when I started my IT career, you know, with so-and-so got back. We're doing this now. Oh, really? Sure. Everyone's doing it these days. Oh really? Can you give me an example of anyone doing it? Hey, don't worry about it. Everyone's doing it. Figure it out.

Andrew Moore 1:06:45

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had a guy at a show and he bought me a steak dinner and told me how good it was in our love that. All right. I'm I'm on it. Um, before we, before we get into the questions, I want to ask, um, you know,

— Advice for the New $5M MSP Service Manager

Andrew Moore 1:07:00

I'm a, let's just say that I'm a I'm a service desk manager and I'm running like, you know, a five million dollar MSP, and I am struggling and I've been promoted, and I'm I'm trying to figure out how to get the service desk where it needs to be. And my clients are kind of pissy with me, and the backlog's growing, and I just I don't I don't know where to start. Um, what do you say to somebody like that? Somebody, you're a grizzled veteran of this, of this industry. Like, where do you say you you put you put your arm around him and you say, okay, listen, man, this is what I would do if I were you. Like, what do you tell somebody like that? Where do they start?

Jack Lincourt 1:07:36

Well, I first I start with congratulations. You're in an MSP making five million dollars a year. That's that's rare. Good job.

Andrew Moore 1:07:42

Fair enough.

Jack Lincourt 1:07:43

Congratulations on your promotion to being service manager, and I am so sorry. Service manager at an MSP is one of the worst jobs you could ever have. It is it, I love it, and you have to love it. You have to love being the glutton for punishment. You have to love the the thrill of the hunt, shall we say. You know, as a service manager, you have to know, just you have to know, it has to be part of you that everyone you come in contact with today is probably going to have a complaint. Okay. And so it might be the owners of your business, it might be the owners of one of your clients' businesses, it could be one of the team members that works for you, or one of the team members from a different team. It could be a colleague that has the same position as you in a different department. You know, it could be a person on the street. It just seems like no matter what happens, everyone has a problem for you, whether you're there to solve it or not, you're the go-between. So if you can handle being the liaison between all these different people, then you're in the right spot. You know, um, it's a tough job. It's a very tough job. But if if you love your team, you know, if you love the people you're working with, you can get through any of those challenges. Every service manager deals with your partners or clients that are upset. No matter how good of a job you do, something's gonna break at the worst time, and you're gonna deal with some person who doesn't appreciate what you do, no matter how great you've done over the years. Dealing with those people is just part of your job. You wouldn't be a service manager if someone didn't entrust in you your ability to handle that kind of conflict management. Now, dealing with that is a lot of times easier than dealing with the conflict management from your team. You don't want to disappoint your team and you don't want them to disappoint you. A lot of times I say you need your team to know that you work for them just as much as they work for you. If not, you work more for them because your job is to make them successful. Okay, so if you're gonna make them successful, that's a lot of hours in your part, building good process, making sure they have the right tools to do the job, making sure you surround them with the right people to do the job. Make sure you have the right types of clients so that they don't have a miserable day because everyone they work with is just complaining all day because they don't trust anything you tell them because of whatever relationship they've had with your company. Now, it takes time to build that trust. It takes time to build the trust with the clients, with your team, with your peers, with your owners. But consistency will win that game. If you show little wins here and there, don't try and implement five things at a time. Implement one thing at a time. What can be most impactful? It can be something very large, it could be something very small, you know, but you get a win. You put something in place that everyone bought into and it worked. Now people were willing to try the next thing. So if you want to succeed, you find something that you think that the team can use, can help them out to be more successful every day, or at least less miserable every day, and you find a way to get them on board and they seem to have a click up. Well, they're gonna trust you with the next thing you bring up. That next thing might be something small, might be something big, you know, and but at least now you've built up that trust. When you build up that consistently, everything works really well. As you grow or as people leave, you need to make sure that the people leave are the ones that are cancelling your organization anyway. Coach them up or coach them out. I'm sure we've all heard that scenario. If someone is not good for your culture, I don't care how good they are for knowledge base or what they bring to the team when it comes to expertise and you know institutional knowledge. If they're a poor team member, they need to go because they don't want to work with other people and people don't want to work with them. I know you're afraid to get rid of them. Everyone's afraid to get rid of that top tier person that's you know been around forever and you bring all the big escalations to them. Well, we've had to do that multiple times over my career, where that top-tier person has to go because they just have a very poor attitude and you're afraid when they're gone. And then you realize they really weren't as important. People didn't go to them nearly as much as you thought. You just liked having the safety net. Well, now someone else is going to step up and be that safety net. So, my suggestion: get the little wins. Work with other, you know, service managers from other firms. You know, do your research, know your team. Get to know your team. You're going to find the people that love their job and the ones that hate their job, whether they tell you or not, you'll hear from the conversations. Let them know that you're invested in them because they're not going to invest themselves in this position if they don't feel that you have their back. And they need to know it and feel it. You need to be passionate about what you do. You can't just walk in there and say the right thing. You've got to convey it. It has to be who you are. You need to lead by example every day. You know, and by doing that, you can, you know, bring the team together. And it's worked for me over my time, and I and I've seen it worked for a lot of other people where they've built trust with their team by simply being there for them, standing up for them, having their back when they make a mistake, or having their back when ownership or someone in the organization is trying to implement something that they know is going to be bad for the team. And even if they lose the battle, you got to be transparent with your team that you were fighting for that. While also not losing your job because you're fighting against the powers that be. You don't want to be too strong, you know, but you have to be a company man while also, or a company person while also being there for your team. And as long as everybody knows that you have the best interest of your team and the company, you know, you can succeed. It's very hard for newer service managers or service managers that came into an organization new, even if they came from another place, to suddenly just have the respect and credibility with all the different departments. You might have it from the owner that you know that you know brought you in or from the team member that promoted you. But does everybody else have that respect? Do they have that camaraderie with you? And if not, build it. You know, just build it. You know, and Andrew, I know you already know this, but when I first started, I didn't know anything about IT. I told you earlier in this, you know, in this conversation about the brute force. I went through 5,000 tickets. I'm sorry, five years worth of tickets, which was around 5,000 tickets at the time. It was a smaller company at the time. And I went and sat with every individual technician on the team with the tickets that they did that were intriguing to me. The things that took them a long time, the things that they did fast, the things that they seemed to enjoy because they did a lot of them, or they were just being dumped on. Did they enjoy that or did they not enjoy that? Got interested in them, their workflow. How can I help them succeed? And if you can find the time for that, it's not easy, but if you can find the time to spend time with your team and build that, you know, that relationship with them, they'll work hard for you because they know you're working hard for them.

Andrew Moore 1:14:54

Go to the trenches, go to where the work is. Uh exactly. And I can't stress that enough to service managers is you've got to be passionate for this. You gotta give a shit. And to your point, right, like you've got to you've got to be in a position where um you get in the hole and you uh you do the work with the team and you figure out what it takes to make them successful. So I I applaud the the passion there because I think it's um it's something that you know you've gotta want to do. It's not always an easy job, uh, but the rewards are are pretty impressive uh when they pile up. And um I, you know, for the right

— Closing Five: Books, Bands, and the Worst HR Meeting Ever

Andrew Moore 1:15:30

person, it's it's a it's a career. And uh I think it's a you know it keeps you busy and it keeps your mind focused. And so um I think especially people that me who have a little bit of ADD, it it's kind of nice to to be on top of uh multiple things at once. So um I I thank you for for for for joining us today. I I do want to hop in real quick and and talk before we go about our our five questions. I asked questions and I I apologize to you again because I normally send these over earlier and I didn't, uh, but if you've heard any of our other podcasts, this is what we talk about. So my first question is what was the last book or something that you read that you were just like this is like the best thing that I've read in business? Like what has helped you uh w when it comes to learning? What have you read that that you're just like this is awesome and I should I want to share it with other people uh in the industry?

Jack Lincourt 1:16:25

Uh if we're talking business books, uh one of the first business books I ever read was The Ideal Team Player. It's also the last one, not because it's the only one, but I read it once a year. I read The Ideal Team Player every year. I also have it on a book on tape. I haven't listened to it yet. It's the only book I actually read. Okay. I love the story, I love the message. And the first time I read it, I said, hey, this is what we do. This is awesome. This is a book that kind of follows our mentality. And I love that encouragement each year, you know, when I when I read it again, because we all also have our team read it. And so every time I give it to somebody new, I want it to be fresh in my head too.

Andrew Moore 1:17:11

That's awesome. And for those that are listening or watching, I'll I'll put them in the show notes so you'll be able to go and I'll usually find a link to it so you can go check it out. So, yes, ideal team player. That's awesome. Um this is gonna be a fun question for me uh to hear your answer. If you were like on a desert island, and you got to listen to one artist or band one, who is it? Who's your favorite? Like, what it what is that, what is that one band or artist where you're like, that's that's my jam always. Doesn't matter what they do, I'm into it.

Jack Lincourt 1:17:44

Oh. Um, one band. I listen to so many genres. So we're talking like I have like one band and listen to forever?

Andrew Moore 1:17:51

Forever. Like you're just like, all right, this is it. Like I for the for the rest of my life, I got this one band.

Jack Lincourt 1:17:57

Probably go journey. What? Okay. I'd go journey. Um they they have meaningful lyrics, they're amazing musicians, terrific compositions, they write catchy tunes. And, you know, I mean, just because everyone knows them, there's there's a reason why everyone knows them, but does everybody know the back catalog? You know, and that they're amazing. I I've loved them since I was a child. And as much as I, as most people know, I'm a metal musician, uh, it doesn't mean I don't really enjoy, you know, just just rock, you know, soft rock, melodic rock, pop rock, whatever you want to call it. Uh good music is good music. They're great musicians, they write great songs, and they still do. You listen to their recent albums, that's still amazing. So I'd I'd have to go with Journey.

Andrew Moore 1:18:45

All right. I'm into that. And so just so I don't butcher uh your band, what's the name of your band, uh, bands uh what do you what do you do musically? Just tell everybody real quick.

Jack Lincourt 1:18:55

The primary band I'm in right now is called Gain to Eleven. And Gain to Eleven is a spoof on um the old movie Spinal Tap, where all the amps go to 11. So it's game goes to 11, volume goes to 11. And the band was formed long before me. It was formed 24 years ago when that made sense, the word gain to 11. And the band back then was more of a hard rock, grunge, metal type of cover band. And over the years, they've morphed into more of just a party rock band. So when I joined them about four years ago, um, they picked up a keyboardist and me as a second guitar player. And now we play everything from, you know, Van Halen to Billy Joel to Billy Idol to, you know, it could be Poison, Bon Jovi, et cetera. Um, but we play current songs like, you know, Shut Up and Dance. You know, we'll do any kind of song that gets a crowd up dancing and having a good time, but we put a bit of a rock edge to it. And we play every weekend. So that's a lot of fun. It was a band that I didn't know I would enjoy as much as I do. I play guitar and do backup vocals for them. Um, and and it's a really, really good time. Um, when I joined, everyone, including the members of the band, were a bit curious if it was going to work for me because I'm so used to playing faster, heavier music. Um, the other bands I'm in is yeah, I'm I'm in a band called Shadow Links, which is signed over in Greece and Germany. Um, and we're a power metal band, you know. So, and I write all the music for that. I write all the instruments and then most of the lyrics. Um, and I work with a singer as well as other musicians and we put things together. And, you know, so that's that's a lot of fun. That's more my speed. That's kind of if anybody's ever heard of Dragon Force um or Halloween in Queensreich, those types of bands is what that is. And that's that's the core of how I write. But I'm also in Iron Maiden tribute bands, you know. So I've been doing that for 15 years. Of I've been in multiple Iron Maiden tribute bands and kind of like the local hired hand. Anyone needs any role from Iron Maiden, call it Jack and he'll do a filling gig for you. And um, and that's a lot of fun because I get to learn, you know, you know, 50, 60, 200, whatever Iron Maiden songs and all the different parts to them because I have to know the different roles. And um, and that's been fun. That's actually what got me back on stage back in 2007 was an Iron Maiden tribute band that I played in for many years. And um, so music is really it's it's in my lifeblood. It's I always say go harder, go home. That's how I am with music, that's how I am in life, that's how I'm at work, go harder, go home. And uh so I I do have multiple bands I participate in, but my primary band right now is Gain to 11. And uh, like I said, we we play about 50, 60 shows a year. So it's uh it's a good time. We have you know good crowds, it's uh upbeat, and uh it's a lot of fun.

Andrew Moore 1:21:41

Yeah, I I cannot wait at some point in the next year or so. Hopefully, I can get up and see you guys. And uh that would be super fun. I think we've come close a couple of times to being able to get up there, but I haven't. So I definitely need to make arrangements to head to the northeast and see you guys get down. Um what um let's let's uh let's keep moving forward. So what is one of the most difficult, embarrassing, awful meetings that you've ever had in business? Doesn't matter. Client, employee, you don't have to name names. What what's just one of those meetings where you're just like, this was stupid and I'm sad that I was there?

Jack Lincourt 1:22:22

Well, in the the different businesses I've been in, I've had many an HR conversation with people over silly things or embarrassing things. I've had to meet with people regarding bad breath, bad hygiene, um, just poor habits. Uh I'd have to say the most awful one I ever had was I had an older gentleman that worked the the shift that ended the night at at a one of the organizations I worked at, and the janitor approached me at one point and asked me to talk to this gentleman because every evening he clogs the toilet. So every evening before he goes home, he goes to the bathroom and clogs the toilet with the amount that he's piling up, you know. And and so I I I was probably 26 at the time and had a meet with a gentleman that was in his mid-60s and and human resources and politely accuse him of clogging the toilets every night. And can he please stop? Which as you can imagine how that went. Of course, he denied it, but of course it never happened again after that day.

Andrew Moore 1:23:40

Like, was I uh I have to ask, like, this is probably gonna come across as sexist, so I apologize. But like, was there a was there a woman in the meeting with you guys, or was it just guys in the in the No, there was a woman from HR in the meeting. I swear to God, if the HR guy had been a dude, he would have been like, Yeah, I did that. He would have been like, I totally did that. And and you should have seen the size of it. Like he would have bragged about it.

Jack Lincourt 1:24:07

When when you put it that way, I can go back and say that could have been the best meeting of all time. Instead, it was one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever had to do in my life. God, I bet. And and and of course, she was newer to me. I was the newest supervisor on his team. And so one of the first meetings I had to have with him was that. That was um that was, yeah, that was uncomfortable. Um like I said, I I've had some other uncomfortable meetings, but that probably topped topped the cake of having to get it out, you know. To get it out. There you go. To get it out. You know, because then he's asking me for examples, and you know, you know, when did the slash happen? I'm like, it's late last last night. You know, like apparently it's every single day.

Andrew Moore 1:24:55

It's like I wonder if there was just somebody that came in from like another part of the building or whatever, and they're like, I'm gonna go ahead and use their bathroom, and then I'm gonna make this old man's gonna he's gonna pay for this. Like, they'll never catch me. Like the poor guy who was like, that wasn't me. Oh my God, that's awful.

Jack Lincourt 1:25:16

It was definitely him. It was definitely, you know, there was there was no question, but still.

Andrew Moore 1:25:22

And I get you, because I remember one of the first times I had to have a one-on-one with a a a gentleman that was considerably older than me, and I'd become the supervisor. Like, you're just you have imposter syndrome at that point. You're like your late 20s, early 30s, you're like, all right, and I gotta sit down and have a conversation with this guy that's like, you know, almost twice my age, and I'm trying to explain to them what a good job looks like. And you're like, you know, they're sitting there looking at you like they do in the movies, and they're like, what the fuck does this kid know? But you know, so so to have to have that conversation is I'm sorry, but it's great.

Jack Lincourt 1:25:55

Yeah, it's I I learned from it and I got better.

Andrew Moore 1:25:59

Awesome. Um, so uh what is your favorite curse word?

Jack Lincourt 1:26:07

I have a favorite, but I threw a lot of mofos out there, you know, motherfu, you know, like probably 30 times a day as yet another thing comes across your desk that you weren't expecting, or you can't believe that happened, or that's so disappointing. You know, sometimes you say it out loud, sometimes you don't. But that's probably a catchphrase of mine on on the help desk, you know, that no one talks about. But yeah, that's certainly that certainly comes out.

Andrew Moore 1:26:35

That's awesome. Um make sure I got through all the questions before we leave. Uh yeah, favorite curse word, best book. Oh, and our last question. Um, if I had to invite somebody on this podcast that uh hasn't been on my podcast yet, who would it be? Who would you recommend that I talk to that you think the world needs to know about in our space? Not like, I'm not asking you to be me like Abraham Lincoln, like somebody that we that you know. Somebody like like, yeah, you should totally talk to this person because I like listening to what they have to say and they're awesome. Have you had Lori Tinnessee on you? Who?

Jack Lincourt 1:27:17

Lori.

Andrew Moore 1:27:18

No, oh, you don't pronounce her name properly.

Jack Lincourt 1:27:21

Lori Tinnesee. I I can't say.

Andrew Moore 1:27:23

Yeah, no, I've done we did a panel with Lori that one time. She's great.

Jack Lincourt 1:27:26

You did. That's a good thing. Because she's amazing. She runs her own business while she's a marketing monster. Yeah. And she would be someone that I'd say the world would be better to get to know her and her process and and how she does things. We run our businesses very different, um, but she's successful in her own way, and she is able to reach people in ways that I can never imagine. You know, if the day ever comes where I'm trying to get myself out to the world, she's the first one I'm calling to say, how do I do that?

Andrew Moore 1:28:07

No, that's that's a fantastic idea. I will reach out to her because it I at least know her. So that's a good one. Uh so that way she can she can jump on. That would be super cool. So um, well, Jack, I cannot tell you how uh extremely uh happy I am and how much gratitude I have for you to be a part of this podcast with me and your friendship over the years. And for those who don't know, and and I don't know if he does this in bulk or for everybody or whatever, but you do do a really good job of making people feel special because I know that uh every time there's a holiday, Jack will send a text to me and he's like, How are you? What's going on? Like he's just always like thoughtful of other people. And so if you ever have a chance to get a uh a minute with Jack, he's gonna give you more than enough time to ask every question you want to ask. He's gonna send you uh a million templates. He's gonna tell you exactly what he's thinking, and uh he's a very generous and thoughtful human being, and so it's been a pleasure to be your friend and uh have you on the podcast. So thank you for that.

Jack Lincourt 1:29:07

Thank you, Andrew. It's it's you've been an inspiration to me all these years. You know, it's it said 10 years earlier, it's actually been 14.

Andrew Moore 1:29:14

Has it really? It hasn't felt that long. So in fairness.

Jack Lincourt 1:29:18

Yeah, so it's but it's it's been it's it's been brief in September 2012. Oh wow.

Andrew Moore 1:29:24

Well, it's been it's been an absolute pleasure, Stuart. Thank you for being here.

Jack Lincourt 1:29:28

Thank you so much.