Meet Bill Poole and the Convergo Referral System

Andrew Moore 0:00

This is the How to MSP podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Moore. You make a really good connection with someone that you can tell is going to be a great connector.

Bill Poole 0:10

You know, if you've really honed in, you got common ideal clients, you guys are talking the same talk right off the bat. And they're gonna they're talking with your people. You're gonna get results really, really quickly, a lot quicker in that than investing a lot of time and money in marketing.

Andrew Moore 0:27

All right. Hello, my name is Andrew Moore, and I am the host of the How to MSP podcast. And this week we are talking with Bill Poole.

Bill Poole 0:37

Hello, Bill. Andrew, so glad to be on your podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Such gusto and enthusiasm. I love it.

Andrew Moore 0:46

Um, Bill is the founder and president of Convergo. Uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about Convergo, what you do there, what you guys are all about, why people should care about your opinions in the MSP space. Just uh quick uh heads up on um what you're up to.

Bill Poole 1:05

For sure. Uh so at Convergo, um, we are razor focused on helping seller doers, founder-led sales folks, uh business development professionals that rely on referrals for their livelihood. So typically, um, those types of folks typically sell high trust uh decisions. And when they're looking to grow, typically, as you know, Andrew, there's only three ways to grow your business. You can invest in marketing, direct sales outreach, or managing relationships to get referrals. Um, the first two are incredibly, almost maybe annoyingly systematized, right? Very metric driven and very systematized. And I'm a systems guy. I say annoying, so no systems terribly annoying for me. Um, but we uh we systematize the uh relationship management piece in order to um to help those folks get more referrals. Um so that's in a nutshell, that's what we do. That's awesome. Um where do where where do we find you today? Where are you physically located? I am physically located in my office in Denver, uh Denver, Colorado, which is where I which is where I live. So I work from I traveled a good bit. Uh we're a small company, but we're remote. And um, so when I'm not traveling, I'm here in Denver, which uh makes me happy.

Andrew Moore 2:25

Nice. Are you like in Denver proper or are you like in a is it easy to tell people

Why MSPs Hit a Referral Ceiling

Andrew Moore 2:30

that you're in Denver? Are you like outside of Denver?

Bill Poole 2:32

Like, I'm in I'm in Denver proper, uh in the city of Denver. So northwest Denver is Highlands is the uh is the name of the neighborhood. It's a mile and a half, two miles from uh from downtown, close enough, yeah, far enough. So it's west of town as well, which means we can make it out to the foothills um pretty easily to mountain bike, hike, uh, enjoy, and close to the mountains and enjoy outdoor life. So that's awesome.

Andrew Moore 2:59

That's awesome. So let's let's start off with um kind of high-level. You had talked about why people should care about what you do and what Convergo does. And so I want to talk a little bit about the MSP space and selling trust and just the idea that building sales from referrals seems to be, at least in in our industry, in the MSP industry, one of the most important things that folks are doing in order to grow their business, right? A lot of times they're not coming into the MSP space with a significant amount of sales experience where they're like, well, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna install Salesforce and I'm gonna build out all these KPIs and I'm gonna throw three or four hunters out there and we're gonna go do this thing and I'm gonna build my company that way. A lot of the times they they build their company because they've they've done a good job. And what I hear a lot is, well, we've done this really good job of working on our referrals, and then they get to a certain point where they're like, Well, I ran out of referrals. Right. Right.

Do the Math: Fewer Connectors Than You Think

Andrew Moore 4:00

And so like talk to me a little bit about like what is what the the program that you have that you work with companies on. Like, talk to me a little bit about your idea of like just the fundamental. Let's just start at the very beginning. Like, what are we doing? How, how, why are we not, why are we running out of referrals? Like, what is the important part of like building a referral network? Like, talk about the fundamentals of it first and kind of give everybody a background on like what you mean by building a systematized referral network, which is like fancy words for what? Like, what does that mean for an MSP owner?

Bill Poole 4:32

Okay, well, business development doesn't need to suck. And I know that a lot of folks that are really good at delivering value in the MSP space probably thinks business development sucks, right? Um it's like you know, relative to uh chewing on tinfoil, um, business development, chewing on tinfoil, probably uh similar um similar activities for for an MSP. Um but what it what it looks like, like it's I'll talk about how to get there later, but what it might look like to do business development is you do business development on your terms. You get with people that are going to be the best people that are gonna introduce you to potentially other strategic connectors and people that are that need your services. So you sp you need to when you do the math, it's pretty simple. Like if you look, if you count up the amount of uh if you do math on a napkin uh and you you look at how much revenue do you want to generate through referrals and you do the math, um you don't typically what people find is they don't need that many clients to meet their revenue goals. And if you think about like a really warm referral from a trusted connector, like a third base referral, like those are the ones that close a high percentage of the time as opposed to someone that's a relatively random referral, you get a bad referral. Someone really knows you, they give you a, you know, they give you good referral, you have a high percentage chance of closing it. If you do the math, um, you typically what people find is they don't need that many strategic connectors in order to meet their revenue goals. So I wasted a lot of time, Andrew, doing business development the wrong way. Like targeting, um, you know, if you're delivering services and trying to develop business at the same time, you need to be very efficient. So targeting, um, you know, targeting the end client can isn't the best play a lot of times, unless you've got all day to develop, uh, all day to develop business. So if you do the math,

Ideal Client Clarity Comes First

Bill Poole 6:30

you only need to need typically a few strategic connectors. Therefore, you should be very selective about the strategic connectors that you engage with. Um, so you're managing fewer, deeper relationships.

Andrew Moore 6:44

Um, so you talk about the strategic connectors, you talk about the number of clients that you need to hit your revenue goals. Sometimes our MSP owners and or sales executives in the MSP space may not be as sophisticated in building out a firm sales environment, right? People who don't come out of like a professional sales system. So we talk about that. Like, I think I want to make sure that people understand if you want to hit a certain amount of money every year for your revenue goals, um, uh to Bill's point, I think it's really important that you sit down and say, well, what is my target? Like, what is my ICP, right? My ideal client profile. Like, what is the target size company that I want to work with? And I think a lot of times MSPs will potentially actually cut themselves a little short by saying, well, you know, I'm really looking like for a five or a $7,000 a month client, but I mean, I'd be happy if I got one that was three. And I think that does them kind of a disservice when it comes to trying to grow their business and then building a referral network because you want to be clear about what it is that you're looking for, right? Like what type of client you really want, because you want them to be referring you the right types of clients just like you want to refer them the right types of clients. Is am I off about that, or is that kind of a fundamental aspect of making sure that we're all clear about what we're trying to accomplish with generating revenue through referrals?

Bill Poole 8:07

100%. It all starts with ideal client clarity, right? And I had this discussion. We had a workshop yesterday, and uh, one of the folks in my workshop is uh, you know, he's an operator, he's a uh fractional um fractional integrator. And, you know, he's starting his journey uh in in the fraction being your fractional integrator, and you know, he's worried about developing his network. So let's look at two ends of the spectrum. On one end of the spectrum, zero clarity on who your ideal client profile is. Okay, I I work with anyone, like you just said, right? I'll work with anyone that has a pulse. On the other end, it's like I work with uh personal injury lawyers that have, you know, between five and or uh like you know, three and ten lawyers, you know, very, very, very specific ideal client profile. So if you think about it, if you're trying to develop a network of strategic connectors or referral partners, it's kind of which one's gonna are you gonna who's gonna have an easier time? The person's a generalist or someone that's very specific.

Andrew Moore 9:12

Right. Right. And I and I think that that's super helpful because it would just be like any company coming to you and they'd say, like, well, you know, why don't you give us some referrals? And you'd be like, what kind of referral? Like, I I know plenty of companies, like, what kind of referral do you want? And they're like, well, I don't know. Like we'd be willing to talk to anybody. Well, that doesn't help me as a referral partner, right? I don't know how to help you get their like I think it's really important that MSPs at least do a little bit of homework in understanding who they're trying to sell to, to your point, what revenue targets they want to hit, and not to sell themselves short, because I would guess that, you know, you as an MSP are in wanting to grow your business, um, you're gonna not want to waste your time with type with the types of clients that aren't gonna be a good fit for you long term, right? And you wanna make sure that you're gonna, if you're gonna spend this sort of concerted effort, which I'm I'm sure you're we're gonna get into here in a second, is this is relentless. Like this is one of those things that we have to be constantly outdoing and nurturing and evolving. And building one of these networks, I think is it takes time, right? Like, can we talk a little bit about that? Like, you know, as you've kind of established what these networks look like, how do you build one? Like, how much time does it take? Like, what does an MSP need to do to start getting out there and like creating some sort of like system where they're bringing in referrals?

Bill Poole 10:35

Okay. So if the the MSP that does not have an does not put a stake in the ground and have an ideal client focus, um, how do they develop their network? I don't know. People that are I'm gonna look for influential people in wherever, right? Well, you don't know. Like, what are you doing? Like someone that's connected with a lot of people on LinkedIn is someone that I want to be with. Well, that they may have a big audience, but are they talking with the right people? Are they people that would actually end up referring you, right? Alternatively, on the other end of the spectrum, you've got an MSP that focuses on, let's keep it keep it legal here on the law firm side. If I'm an MSP that focuses on serving law firms, then, you know, who are the people that I'm talking to in law firms that are making the decisions for me? And who else is providing value in those law firms for that person that is talking with that person all the time? It's a lot easier to build a really good network of referral partners if you're looking for people whose services are gonna complement yours, that are gonna be actually if ideally if their services are improved, if you do a good job, then that person isn't is looking for refer for business for you for themselves at the same time, right? So building a network, if you do have that clarity on who your ideal client is, it's a lot easier to build a referral network.

Andrew Moore 12:04

And so, like, let's just say that I'm an MSP and I'm a generalist MSP. Like I just have a lot of different types of clients, but let's just say that, you know what, though, I do really want to focus like on professional services. Like I like accounting firms, I like law firms, like they they're pretty lucrative for me. Uh, I have uh uh half a dozen of them in my portfolio that I'm supporting currently. How do you suggest that a company like an MSP

Build Your Network Inside Out: Ask Who They Trust

Andrew Moore 12:30

go about the process of developing uh a list of potential referral partners, right? Do they go directly to these clients and say, who are you working with? Or do they look in their own Rolodex and say, who have we run across at these clients in the past, or who do we want to be working with? Like, where do you really start to unravel this? Like, how do you start the process to identify who you want to work with?

Bill Poole 12:53

Great question, Andrew. So if you are serving those professional services businesses, I mean, who's the primary stakeholder there, right? So take them to lunch, ask them some questions. Who do you provide value? Who do you trust? Um, like that who who do you have extreme, what vendors do you have extremely high trust relationships with? So that's kind of like going inside, you know, inside out, which, you know, if you're starting off, which works if you're starting off with zero, you know, if you you're you may be starting off without any network at all. You can get up to speed pretty quickly if you if you do it that way. So just ask questions. Ask questions if you've got, if you're not yet serving that that space. I'm sure you have friends in the professional services space. Ask questions about, you know, how they make decisions, what vendors uh do they, you know, what are really high trust vendors? And then you can actually kind of work on developing your referral network as you might, in the same way that you might develop your your client book a business, right? Except that referral network can be more valuable even than your client network as well. So ask questions, find out who they trust. And those are the people, you know, if they trust a business broker or whatever that, whatever that person would be, uh, in professional services, they might have a uh maybe a business coach or something, um, which is not very specific. Um, but you find out who they trust and build your network kind of inside out.

Andrew Moore 14:22

Yeah, that's that's great advice because I think a lot of folks don't really know how to start eating the elephant. So they're just like, man, this seems like really hard. Like I don't even know where to start. And I think it's important because most of the successful MSPs I I know, they just go out and talk to people, right? They're just out there having conversations and trying to get a better understanding of what the market needs or who in their network could use their services. And um, those kind of relationships develop and then they, you know, begin to branch out and then they grow and they grow and they grow. But I see them constantly nurturing those networks. Um, but I also see those networks growing and changing over time with the ones that stay successful. Um, and I never thought about the systematic processes that you were talking about in order to maintain those networks. But what I'd like to understand more about is what is your advice for someone who's like, okay, great, like I've decided I'm gonna go out and I've met like five different companies that I wanna, people in different companies that are adjacent to my clients, like I've started this process. Like, what qualities do you want to see in those people? Um, you know, what do you want to see from them on a regular basis? Like, how does the actual system work where you're like out trying to build the network and actually getting referrals? Because I'll be honest with you, there have been times where I've worked with the local, you know, internet provider rep, or I've worked with the local low vault guy. And I'll be honest with you, like, he never really brought me deals, but I was always bringing them deals. And that was frustrating, right? And it got to the point where I was like, you know, wasn't selfish, but I was

The Strategic Connector Profile and Keeping Score

Andrew Moore 16:00

also like, I'm bringing you a lot of business and I don't really get any referrals in return. And so I felt like maybe I could find a better fit, but I got lazy and I didn't want to do it. And I was just like, well, that just seems hard. So as long as my clients are taken care of, I guess I'll just sit here and not get referrals. Like, can you talk a little bit about that process?

Bill Poole 16:16

Sure. I mean, one thing is keep score. I mean, if you've got what you feel like are you've got a it's really it starts with an ideal strategic connector profile. Like, what is the type of person? And that sounds you know, it's best to separate the the names of people from your network. Like, what is the best person first for that's gonna be a really good referral partner for you? Right. And that that's like you don't know if they're gonna be a if you're gonna like them, but you can look at a database and know that this person is probably talking to the people inside of my ideal client businesses that is going to be able to help me. Um so that there's that component, and then and then whittling it down, say that there's a you say that a a CFO is a is a um um, you know, a CFO is a good uh good contact, you meet five CFOs, then you wanna you wanna, you know, ideally my my system is really about prioritizing the best few connectors that you have. So in addition to being connected, like there's a relationship piece there where you like them, right? You have value alignment and things like that. And that they are a giver. Like you don't want to be continuously giving, you want it to be a mutual, uh, uh, a back and forth thing. So um we keep score. I mean, in the CRM, like we have HubSpot and we help our clients with HubSpot where we've got a dashboard and HubSpot has lead scoring for for leads for clients. We do we do scoring for our strategic connectors as well, and we have a scoreboard. So you can if they're not referring, uh if they're not if you're not getting referrals from these folks, then you then you don't invest time in them. Yeah. Invest time in the folks that are.

Andrew Moore 17:48

Well, and and I think it was interesting that you brought up are they selling into or working with companies that you want to work with. I've in the past made the mistake of working with like a like an ERP vendor, right? The the that ERP vendor was selling into very large accounts. And there was not an opportunity for us when we were that size in an MSP to sell into those accounts. So it really just became like an opportunity to go to lunch with somebody every now and again. Like we never really wound up having a a relationship where we were helping each other. But the the thing that I found very rewarding was like the local insparity rep. That person was selling directly into the SMB space that we were selling into, and we knew all the same companies. Um, and so we really tried to get together and make each other look good. And that was a very fruitful relationship, right? Because we were selling to the same type of client. Um and to your point, we were very much aligned on we were a more premium package, just like Insparity was, like we wanted to work with high growth companies like Insperity did. Like there was a lot of things that I think from a value perspective, like we were both moving in the same direction with the

The Help-First Value Exchange

Andrew Moore 19:00

same types of clients. So our messaging landed properly. Um so I think it's really important what you said, and that it's more than just, are they bringing me leads? But it's also some of these other ancillary things that I never thought about until you just said it. I'm like, oh, ding, ding, ding. Like that seems like it's something that would be really helpful to know.

Bill Poole 19:18

Yeah, for sure. And I think there's other ways to help also besides besides the um besides the lead thing and get the referral and referrals. Referrals really come second in my system. If you think about finding people that are help first, that that are going to be good referral partners that do indeed um that do indeed help first, um, what are you gonna do with them to provide value? Is it is it just golfing or or lunch? That that's good, and you have rich conversations. Or you can collaborate on things like this. Andrew, thanks for inviting me to your podcast, like collaborate on marketing events or podcasts or things like that. Um, something that that um we call that the help first value exchange, right? So instead of getting on the phone once a month or once a quarter and asking for referrals, what are you gonna do to exchange value in the meantime? I've got a group that I created, uh, which is part of my system of non-competing providers um in the Denver market. We all serve the same ideal client. We meet once a week. Um, that sounds like a lot in Zoom, right? We meet once a week in Zoom. We've been doing this for three years. We really like each other. Like there's different ways that we help each other. It's not about getting referrals. I think that I've referred three different people. I I've referred people that have been hired into the into people in that group are looking to hire people. I've I've given three different connected them with three different people that they've end up hiring, right? What are your what are your and we're very EOS-y, what are your rocks? Okay, well, I've got someone to introduce you to to help you with the rocks. And then guess what happens when you take that approach? Referrals are a byproduct of that. And they just come naturally. And it's not just like a transactional referral. It's really about being more intentional about like a really a help-first approach with the right strategic connectors that also give back.

Andrew Moore 21:11

Well, and I I kind of we had a a bit of a an idea of how we wanted to touch on things today, and I got a little out of order because I got right into like how do how do you do it. Um, but I think this kind of goes back to something that I wanted to touch on that I skipped over. But there's so many tools that people get sold uh in a lot of ways, um, where from a sales perspective, they are constantly being told, well, if you just get out there and you you know optimize your website and you know put enough YouTube content out there, or if you're you know doing enough uh you know cold email blasts, or you're doing this, or you're doing that. And I I want to make sure that I'm clear about a lot of those things are important. Like they they they happen to support the marketing efforts that you're putting forward to create. Legitimacy around your business and your brand. But I'm so grateful for the fact that you brought up being out there and just networking with people and having conversations and being intentional about giving to the other businesses that are trying to grow in your community or in your channel or whatever. Like to me, that's the gold. And I think that so many MSPs or even small business owners don't take the time to do that because they're just busy. Right. And they're like, and they're not they're like, oh man, that just seems like it's me getting together and bullshitting with some people. And like but I mean, let's talk about that a minute. Like talk to me a little bit more about the transformation you've seen in some other businesses. Like, how does this really work? Like, are you seeing it like all the time? Like if is it what you put in is what you get out? Like, like really like give everybody the secret sauce part of it. Like, is it is it working? Like, how do you how do you see it?

Bill Poole 22:51

So, I mean, I is it is like the the referral approach working? Is that the question?

Andrew Moore 22:57

Yeah, like the effort, the effort against the the the outcome, right? Like, is that what you're seeing is like if you if anybody puts in the time to do the networking and the and the integration into a group and to take the time to get out there and talk to other business owners and really understand their network, are they going to see good things out of it or do they have to have um a specific agenda or do they have to be very intentional? Like at what level does the commitment to being a part of something, right, help generate an outcome and

Why Marketing Is the Slow, Expensive Path

Andrew Moore 23:30

then layer that on top of like a process and a system? Like let's just talk about that a little bit.

Bill Poole 23:35

So I'm I'm gonna I'll tell the beginning of a story and validate if what I think is right. Think about the the MSP grows on relationships and referrals, has a bunch of happy clients, and realized that the referrals have dried up. You said in the beginning, right?

Andrew Moore 23:48

Right.

Bill Poole 23:49

What they would typically do is okay, our our we've got aggressive goals and we need to do something differently. So what what they do typically is invest in marketing or direct sales outreach. Um well, and and I'm guilty of doing this myself as well, but marketing, how marketing, if you've not done a lot of marketing, I know a lot of MSPs probably haven't done as much marketing as they should. Market, if you're gonna do pure marketing and expect that to bring you leads, that is very expensive and takes a very, very, very long time to get traction, right? And I as a fractional sales and revenue professional, I've made mistakes. Uh when clients came to me or prospects came to me and said, you know what, I've grown on relationships and referrals, but I need more. So, okay, well, you want something predictable and systematizable. Let's go to direct sales outreach then. Well, that's not really a that's doesn't make that's not what's worked to date. You can get better at getting referrals. If you need to, you know, spin up a direct sales outreach program, that takes a lot of time. So, like just shifting to a bit more intentionality with how you're managing the right relationships to get referrals is, I mean, that is um, I mean, you can get traction on that pretty quick. I mean, you you you think about times when you really really connect with a you make a really good connection with someone that you can tell is gonna be a great connector. You know, if you've really honed in, you got common ideal clients, you guys are talking the same talk right off the bat. And they're gonna, they're talking with your people. You're gonna get results really, really quickly, a lot quicker in that than investing a lot of time and money in marketing. And when you invest in marketing, um, you know, I've got a I was talking with a CMO this morning, a fractional CMO organization. He says, Bill, I want to be their third, I want to be their third marketing agency because typically they fire the first two before because they've been really, really, you know, really challenged. And that you know, that's the that's the truth. So it's gonna take a long time to get results the other ways. You might need to, if your goals are really, really, really aggressive, you're gonna need to do something and invest in marketing and or direct sales outreach, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to what got you here.

Andrew Moore 26:07

Yeah, that that's exactly what I wanted you to talk about, because I think people feel like I always kind of take this approach at like all uh, you know, all streams lead to rivers, all rivers lead to, you know, the ocean, and you know, as long as you're on a path. Like I my recommend, you know, whether it's going to the gym or uh, you know, doing doing this networking thing, it's like just get out there. Like even if all you're doing is just starting the process of going out to figure out who you want to talk to, start flexing the muscle of, I showed up to a networking breakfast. Yeah, and it was kind of weird and I didn't like all the people there. And so maybe I'll go back the next week and see if it's any better. Or go to your local, like, go to a conference like in your industry, right? And just sit at a table full of a bunch of people at lunch that you don't know and have a conversation. Like, like I feel like there's so many good things that come from just raw networking and being out having conversations that uh people don't do it enough. And I think that post-COVID, I I believe that everybody has started to really understand how important it is to be in person and and shake hands and have conversations. Um, not that this medium of being able to meet each other virtually, you know, you and I have not met in person. I think that's fantastic. Um but I I can tell you that my time spent at the PAX 8 conference last week was fantastic. Like I met 10 or 12 new people and I've talked to two new opportunities for vendor relationships and like all these things that happen just by being around, right? Being in person.

Bill Poole 27:36

Yeah. And you mentioned like going going to that breakfast that uh was terrible. Actually, if there's you're thinking that was not really a good use of my time, but you you do have to get out there, but you do need to do so with intention and really figure out what breakfasts you're gonna go to and what is the best plan. It can't, I mean, it can be random, but you're not gonna get random great results being random. You need to do, you need to kind of pick your point. You don't have, it's not like you've got all kinds of 100% of your day to invest in in marketing, I mean in business development. You need to make the best use of that time as possible. So you need to figure out where your time, energy, and money is gonna get the best bang for your buck and keep score. Like keep score, you keep your your own scorecard. I mean, the the typically what I see, uh MSPs and otherwise, is the the metric that people typically track when it comes to referrals is how many

Leading Metrics and the Emotional Bank Account

Bill Poole 28:30

referrals did you get? If you're tracking that, then the ship is sailed. You're not affecting anything. Like you need to have that's a lagging metric, right? So, what is it that you're gonna do? And what is it, what are the activities that you need to track and keep score of that's gonna result in getting referrals? So it's really it can't be random. You gotta be intentional about it. And it's not that hard. It's a lot simpler when you have a plan, you know what you're doing and you keep score.

Andrew Moore 28:57

So that's a really, really I want to dig into that. I want I want to dig into that with you because when I work with my clients, one of the first things they come back to me with their scorecard is they're like, you know, number of new deals closed this month. I'm like, cool. Like, I love that for you, right? And let me ask you, like, so if it's zero, w w what are you gonna do? And they're like, well, we're just gonna try harder. I'm like, well, maybe let's test, like, to your point, let's go back three steps. If you know you're at a 30 to 50 percent close rate, right, on writing contracts, and you know that if you write at least four contracts a month, right, that you're gonna you're gonna wind up closing at least one of them, let's just say. And then if we back up from that, you need to have six discovery calls in order to get to four contracts. Maybe we should say that we need to have at least two discovery calls a week. Like let's start there, right? Like let's back up to that. And then that way, if you didn't hit your two discovery calls, you know next week we may may need three or four. And then you can actually affect some change with your forecasting rather than just being like, didn't hit it again. Yeah. Right.

Bill Poole 30:04

So I mean, yeah, the you keep score of how the deals that you got, that's in QuickBooks, right? You don't need to put that on your sales floor card. That's that's already done. And um arguably, Andrew, I'd say that the discovery call thing, I think that's a lagging metric, quite frankly. But what do you think what's gonna lead to a discovery call? It's gonna be that activity with those strategic connectors or referral partners, or that, you know, the amount of your website um traffic, right? Or like the amount of blogs that you write. It's like so the amount of discovery calls, that's almost too late, also. So you want you need the discovery calls that are gonna get to the business, but you you know, if you want to be really metric driven and disciplined, then what is it, what do you do, what do you need to do that's gonna get to the discovery calls, whether it be direct sales outreach, marketing, or managing relationships, there's a there's a further leading metric there.

Andrew Moore 30:54

Well, talk, talk, talk to me then, because I want to dig into that leading metric on referrals. So you said there is something that you want to see tracked beyond just did I get a referral or not? Like what what do you see? Like what's the magic unlock? Like what do people need to be doing that need to be tracking to hold themselves and their sales team accountable to getting that referral? Like, what does that look like?

Bill Poole 31:13

Okay. So one thing is the amount of referrals that you give. That's one thing. So if I if I give a hundred referrals and someone gives zero referrals, like who's gonna get more business coming back? Right. So it's it's really like that's something that I do have control over is the somewhat, right? The amount of referrals that I give or the amount of introductions that I make. There's a Stephen Covey concept, Andrew, called the emotional bank account. And the emotional bank account is about making um you make deposits, right? If you like a bank, if I open up a bank account without making a deposit and I go try to make a withdrawal, they're gonna look at you like you're crazy, right? But you gotta so you put money in the bank and you can take money out. The emotional bank account, the covey concept is you make deposits, emotional deposits. Like how I have my strategic connector group. You can keep scoring your in your CRM how many deposits have I made to my strategic connectors, not just random people, but if I have my list of 10, I should be making a deposit um, you know, once a month or once a quarter, whatever, whatever the right number is for the amount of people that you're managing a relationship with, make those deposits. And those deposits, that's why it's really, that's why my system is really about having fewer, deeper relationships. And those deposits can be more significant. It might be a recommendation for for someone that's gonna hire an employee, or it might, you know, it's it can be a really rich deposit as opposed to um, or you know, introducing someone to a strategic connect, someone that's may turn into a strategic connector themselves, right? So measuring the things that that are gonna get you out of there are going to end up in referrals. Uh the two big ones that we have are ref giving of referrals and then those emotional deposits.

Andrew Moore 32:59

That's really excellent. Like I think to your point, like if we can't give a hard referral, just giving uh some good advice or giving somebody another um person to talk to really can be can be very helpful, especially like it I I always say that hiring is a lot like sales. Um it it you know, you gotta strike when the iron's hot, time kills all deals, you gotta market yourself the right way, on top of making sure that that person's a uh a good fit. And if I'll I'll take a referral to hire somebody any day off somebody cold from the street, right? So like referrals for me when it comes to hiring are just as gold as getting a client because sometimes an employee will be with us for I've had employees with me for 11, 12 years, right? Or longer.

Bill Poole 33:43

For sure. And that applies to those strategic connectors as well. I mean, the strategic connectors that I have are owners of businesses that aren't going anywhere. My clients, you know, the clients turn over to an extent, right? But you know, you're if you pick the right strategic connectors, the ones that um, you know, that are in it

Lunch and Learns Without Random Acts of Marketing

Bill Poole 34:00

for the long haul, then those those folks can be really, really valuable as an employee can be as well.

Andrew Moore 34:06

Well, and so one of the things that um I, you know, just to kind of talk a little bit, just like tactically, because we've been, you know, kind of at a at a higher level a little bit, but the advice tell me if I'm wrong here, uh, because you already shed light on a couple of things that I want to talk to my clients about that I might change, right? Which is great. So when I talk about, and I never looked at it the way that you did, right? It was just something that we used to do that was helpful, and I never systematized it, but I give this advice to my clients. They're like, how do I go get more business? I'm gonna go spend a bunch of money on a marketing company and I'm gonna buy HubSpot. And I'm like, cool. I was like, before you do that, my recommendation is that you go find, like, if you have a local HR, uh like an outsourced HR company like Insperity or a PEO or somebody that you have worked with or works with your clients, go talk to their local rep. Uh, go talk to your local internet provider, like the one that you like that provides great internet, like somebody that is a rep at the one of your local data centers. Go talk to somebody that sells uh business insurance because of IT security. Go talk to a local bank or credit union, right, that does business-to-business type loans and stuff, right? And get them all together or talk to them individually and talk about putting together a lunch and learn about something that's important, something super easy like cybersecurity. Like, say we're gonna do a lunch and learn. I'm gonna have all of you bring three of your favorite accounts, right? And we're all gonna bring them all together. And, you know, I'll say the MSP for the first one, I'll say that I'll foot the bill for the first one, right? I'll pay for the food, I'll get the event booked, I'll show up, everybody can brand it, right? We can cross market it and we're all gonna get up and we're not gonna sell. We're just gonna have a round table about the importance of security in your business when it comes to employees, when it comes to the banking, your finance, like your IT, all that stuff. And at the end, if they want to work with us, then we'll be around. And I'm like, start there. That's my advice. Like, but after that, I don't really have any advice after that. Like, that's my first bit of advice is like, do that and see if it works and then get back to me. A lot of my clients have done that and they're like, well, this is great, we're gonna do more of these. Some of them just never get around to doing them. Am I wrong in saying that that's the approach? Or is there a better way to do this? Like instead of jumping straight to an event, like what what do you tell people? If if you saw me in a room tell my client that, would you be like, that's a great idea, and I'd start there? Or you'd be like, well, it's okay, but maybe I would do it differently. Give me some advice here. Like, what should we be telling people?

Bill Poole 36:32

I think it really depends on who you target. Like you're um, you know, if you're targeting um contractors, right? What is it that they need? What would resonate with them? It it it it it's that ideal client clarity is so important. And what what what is gonna resonate with those people? What's gonna resonate with the professional services uh organization is gonna be different than what would resonate for like a builder or contractor, right? Are they gonna come to a lunch and learn? Are they on site, right? So it kind of um it's really dependent on who the target is. But if you think about if you're proper, if you've picked a great connector and you know, you think about your your great connector ideally serves the same audience. I would say that like with that formula that you just had, um, that you just said with having that lunch and learn is great, but don't make it random. The uh uh Jennifer Zick is someone I know that that um she trademarked the um random acts of marketing, right? Random acts of marketing is doing like um you know just a one-off thing, right? If that's a good idea, make it or make it a thing. Like do it regularly, two times a year. Make it a system so that you're not making decisions on what are we gonna do in the fall? Like, uh, well, you got a system. Last fall we did this, and we're gonna make it better this time. So just the consistency behind it is to really have a plan which is very dependent on who that ideal client is. And don't over, you know, don't make the plan too aggressive, don't overextend yourself financially or m more importantly, like your time and energy. Make it a plan that works given what you need to do, you know, outside of that. But the if you if you pick the right things and do them, you know, regularly and peel out the garbage that that that doesn't work, you know, that's the idea.

Andrew Moore 38:18

So so the the modification to this plan, which we come back to kind of full circle, we talked about at the beginning, is really focus on that ideal client profile. Like if we're like, listen, we're gonna do this thing, but we're really excited about general contractors. We think that the construction industry is a really booming place right now. Uh and we want to get a bunch of them together. We want to talk about the importance of IT security in regards to GCs. And so we're gonna, you know, if you guys have got clients that are between, you know, 25 and 125 employees, uh, bring them, like especially if they're GCs, right? Like we want to have that conversation because we're gonna gear it directly towards that uh from a messaging standpoint. Does that that sound like a fair clarification?

Bill Poole 39:01

Yeah, I was it may uh made me think of a conversation I had with um with a guy down down in uh in New Orleans and he was serving um he was serving a bu a guy a bunch of folks in the Maritimes, right? They're their their ship, I think they provided services for for ships and such, right? And he said that, you know, you can cut this if you want, Andrew, but what his what what his ideal clients like to do is they like to go to the girly bars, right? It's like, okay, well take like have an event at a girly bar then. Whatever, you know.

Andrew Moore 39:36

It the the person matters I'm from Houston originally, like like I think they invented strip clubs in Houston. Like that's an oil and gas like thing. So yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, James Parton played in Houston a really long time because of our strip clubs.

Bill Poole 39:50

So I've heard about him.

Andrew Moore 39:54

For sure. For sure. But yeah, I mean it's it if you know, know your audience, I think, is a is the most important thing that you could say is that, you know, if you that's another thing that I think is a really important thing about, you know, if you're just gonna use the the idea of of doing a lunch and learn or whatever. But to your point, um I was just talking with a a client recently, and they were they had this really fantastic um private room uh at the top of a building that they um have control over in in downtown. And they would invite people to this room for events. But what it felt like when people got invited to this was they were being invited to a private room at their office, right? So they kind of expected to get sold, right? Whereas this last event, I was like, let's go ahead and have that at Vic and Anthony's. Let's have it at a steak place, right? Downtown, right? So that you're still, you know, central. But let's see what happens. And they had a fantastic turnout, right? Like there were a lot of people that were like, oh, like I know Vic and Anthony's, I know the quality of the food, I know what I'm getting. I know I'm gonna get sold a little bit, but I could always get up and leave if I wanted to. I can pretend I'm going to the bathroom. And so like after the stake. Yeah, after the stake, right? Like as long as but like I think it's important that to your point, is it like know who your audience is? Like they invited executives and um um high-level like, you know, sales associates and stuff like that to come out to this event. Uh and so they had a good turnout and that was the kind of crowd you wanted there, and they had a really good networking time at the beginning where there was a lot of conversations and swapping of business cards. So um I was really excited to hear that that turned out for them, but I think it was because they picked the right venue and they had the right mix of people. Right.

Bill Poole 41:35

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Moore 41:37

Um so one of the things I do want to touch on before we we run out of time is this sounds like it's really good for um MSP owners, um, maybe even some MSP executives. Can this translate to like if if one of my MSPs that I'm working with has got like a a like a lead salesperson, can they really master this sort of thing? Or do you have to be do you have to have more gravitas to get out there and build a network? Like talk to me about who the right fit is for this.

Bill Poole 42:09

We actually had two in a a recent workshop. Um I think it was the April workshop. It's we have workshops that last about four weeks. We had a couple cybersecurity reps, their business development reps in there that um that develop develop their own system. And it can be more effective if you think about it, with um if you have uh what those folks have is budget a lot of times. They've got a marketing department potentially behind it. If you've got things a marketing department could support a business development rep to who creates his or her own system, a lot of times those can be better events and a business development rep, the guy, the the main rep that came through was having, you know, I think he just hosted the event last week in Chicago with another uh a hardware provider that it was a mutually beneficial uh referring situation where um you know they provide the hardware and like the the the the guys that came in, the the guy that came through my workshop worked for the cybersecurity company. They collaborated on a workshop together and they're gonna do it, you know. I think they do it once a quarter. So it absolutely, I mean, it we're really it it's it's a little different for a founder that or a seller doer that's provided, somebody's providing services that only has 25% of their time. For someone that is is a pure biz dev person, they've got more time. Um, you know, they got more time to uh invest in doing that and can really, you know, potentially extend extend the reach there. Um so I don't know what they would do otherwise if they uh you know if you get if they rely on referrals for their business, you know, it's it's put a plan in place and and make it not random.

Andrew Moore 43:48

No, that that's super helpful because I think um the other side of that is you know, if you've got a a a business development rep to your point, um I always tell my my owners, I'm like, don't hire A salesperson, unless you're ready to manage a salesperson, right? And a lot of times I'm like, no, I'm just gonna hire the salesperson, they're gonna go sell stuff. That's what salespeople do. And I'm like, all right. I was like, I'll talk to you in six months. And uh and so when you when you decide that if you've got a a business development rep and if you are like managing them a little bit, um I think w the last thing I want to find out from you is you talked a little bit about leading indicators, laddering indicators. What do you tell if you were to walk in cold and you and you brought in a

Coaching a BDR to Build a Network

Andrew Moore 44:30

BDR to an organization, what would you be telling them like, hey, this week at our one-on-one, like I need you out doing this to start building this network or to maintain this network? Like, are you gonna be tracking like opportunities that they've had to give to others? Are you tracking like, you know, straight referrals? Are you tracking like um, you know, events that they're going to? Like, what are you tracking to make sure that you're reinforcing that with a BDR rather than just holding yourself accountable as a lead salesperson?

Bill Poole 44:57

So, first of all, there's in that example, there's a lot of different ways to go in the people you can hire. You can hire a BDR that's a salesperson that's looking for a job, that it which means they're there's no guarantee they're good at what they're doing because they don't necessarily have a job. They may not be connected. Um, and so if they need to build a network, then that's a whole nother thing. Alternatively, you can hire the person that has the network, you're really hiring the network in some cases. So it's gonna be a little bit different. If you, if you it's expensive to hire that person that already has the network, but their time to performance is gonna be drastically different than someone that is starting from square zero selling a high trust decision without a network. So, what I would encourage if you did go that route uh and hire the on the you know, hire a BDR on the cheap that doesn't have a network, I recommend that you that as an owner that you work with, not just tell the BDR what to do here, do this, that, or the other. I would work on a plan with the BDR to help them to develop an ideal strategic connector, to set goals, to develop an ideal strategic connector profile. Then based on you know the ideal clients, what are the activities that you're gonna do? So I would co-create, I you know, the founder or the sales leader is going to lead that discussion, but just don't tell them what to do. Co-create a plan that starts with who the ideal client is, what the goals are, you know, therefore, how many relationships do you need? So, therefore, what's the right profile person and what are the activities that you're gonna do with them? And then how are you gonna measure and track it? So I would do, I wouldn't tell them what to do. I would work with them on, you know, co-authoring what the plan is. That way it's not like a big brother thing. It's that person's invested in the plan and is more than is gonna be a more likely to carry through on the right plan to achieve results.

Andrew Moore 46:49

That shit sounds hard. And I know that there's a guy out there that could that could help our MSP community and channel to start developing those types of systems. So um I would encourage MSPs if they are interested in figuring out how to systematize their referrals, to reach out to Bill. We'll have uh info in the show notes. But I've uh I think that what you're what you've uh put together is fantastic. And I'm I'm excited to to introduce it to some folks on the channel through through my podcast. I I think you've you've got something that you've that you've got, something here worth sharing. I think it's gonna be cool.

Bill Poole 47:26

Thanks so much, Andrew. If people want to do some things on their own, um

Closing Five: Books, Bands, and Broken Suspenders

Bill Poole 47:30

we've got a referral system self-assessment. It takes five to seven minutes, and you can get a sense as to whether or not how good a job you do at managing um managing relationships to get referrals. You'll get some good insights.

Andrew Moore 47:43

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, before we go, I want to ask you just a few questions uh and we'll just power through these because we're we're at we're at about time now. So um I I want to know uh for the audience, just for for what's the best book that you've uh ever read that's helped you with business? What's your favorite?

Bill Poole 48:00

Best book. I would say, you know.

Andrew Moore 48:04

This might be It's okay if it's try. Mine's good to great. Okay. Well, actually the goal for me, but like, I mean, it can be whatever.

Bill Poole 48:12

Like Okay, I like the gap and the gain, personally. Are you familiar with that book? I'm not. It's uh Dan Sullivan writes a lot of good business books, Who Not How, uh 10X is better than 2x. Um, but as a uh you know, business owner and entrepreneur, it can be challenging to you're always thinking about what you have to do next and where you're going and not appreciative enough about what you've done and how much better you are today than you were a month ago, a year ago. So it's instead of looking at the gap as to where you're not, make sure you appreciate what you've done and and where you've been.

Andrew Moore 48:44

I love that. I love that. Um Okay, you don't have to use the word if you don't want to, but do you have a favorite curse word?

Bill Poole 48:52

Favorite curse word, I would say um bullshit.

Andrew Moore 48:58

Nice. Yeah. Nice.

Bill Poole 49:00

Very like calling bullshit. I have a I have a good bullshitometer. So when someone's bullshit, you can tell, right?

Andrew Moore 49:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like I can, but then there are times where I've been like, man, I got bamboozled.

Bill Poole 49:13

Yes, isn't that no matter how good your bullshitometer is, you can get bamboozled.

Andrew Moore 49:18

Yeah, for sure. I love that. Uh okay. Favorite band or artist? Like you're on a desert island, you get one band, one catalog for the rest of your life. What is it? That's easy for me.

Bill Poole 49:28

I love fish. That's right.

Andrew Moore 49:30

What is that behind you? Tell everybody because that's cool.

Bill Poole 49:32

The fish tickets. My wife got me uh a uh she took my fish tickets out of uh out of a shoebox and created a nice piece of art.

Andrew Moore 49:40

And for those who cannot see this, there's gotta be a hundred tickets. How many tickets are up there?

Bill Poole 49:45

There's a lot. I don't know, but they stopped giving those tickets away some time ago. So there's even more digitally.

Andrew Moore 49:52

Yeah, that's crazy. That's super, super cool. Um, but you have not seen them at the sphere, right? I think we established that.

Bill Poole 49:59

I have, actually. Yeah, a couple of years. You did. Okay, you did. Yeah. I did. God, that's so cool. Lucky. Very lucky.

Andrew Moore 50:06

Um okay, so what's the worst sales call meeting that you've had with a client or a prospect, or you can change the names to protect the innocent. Like, have you ever been in like a business meeting that just was so ridiculously bad or went so sideways that it like has been seared in your mind forever, and when you tell it its stories, people spit their drinks out?

Bill Poole 50:26

Um one um one funny one, I don't I don't it would had a good outcome, but it was embarrassing at the time. Um, I was 23, 24, and I was selling, I started selling copiers out of college, and I like I I was I sold Xerox, and Xerox had these big docuTex, and these were like these are book publishers that did publishing on demand. It was tw this is, you know, this is a long time ago. And I again I was 23, 24, and these things cost like $300,000. And I was on a closing call out of my, I was above my, it was not um, I was probably shouldn't have been where I was, but I was dressed, you know, I had my suspenders on and everything, and I um and I was, you know, I was young, still coming up, and this is way biggest deal I ever had. And I went to uh get my pen out, you know, for that it was it came time to sign the deal, and I reached across and handed it to you know the owner of the book publishing business, and my suspender broke because it was a little worn, you know, the off off of the uh off of the button and it came off. That's awesome. It was kind of funny. It didn't did he sign it? Oh, he signed it. And I got it was a it got a good laugh.

Andrew Moore 51:37

I I just love the fact that you were like, that's just so like super sales guy Xerox 101. You're like, I'm I was dressed to the nines and I had a pen in my pocket and I was like, oh, the deal is gonna close, so I'm gonna slide the pen across the table. Old school stuff. So good. I just I just I people who are old or younger don't realize that like you have to show up and you have to have three copies of the contract and you make sure that you had one that you could mark up and write on and maybe stream.

Bill Poole 52:03

Press down hard when you sign.

Andrew Moore 52:04

Yeah, like you had all the stuff, like you had to be all prepared when you showed up because you might get them to sign it right that second. And all that it was so good. So good. Um well now the the last question that I always ask is um, is there anyone that I need to have on my show? Is there a referral that you would give me uh for somebody that I should reach out to and be like, hey, like you should be known in the channel. Like you like because I got your information from our friends over at Ashton, uh, and so they referred you Jim and the team there. Uh who who should I be talking to that knows something about business or IT or MSP or who do I need to be talking to?

Bill Poole 52:38

I uh a guy in my uh strategic connected group is Jeff Fantalis here at the in the um Denver market. Um he's a um um he is uh an MSP provider, and he has um Beat Inventive is the name of his business, and they provide um they provide cybersecurity to make the network environment more usable. Um Jeff has been um Jeff is a fantastic connector for me. Uh we help we really enjoyed the time that we have together and we help each other a lot.

Andrew Moore 53:07

Awesome. Yeah, definitely pass me his info and I will reach out to him and talk to him about whether or not he'd be interested in talking to the channel and tell him what uh he's doing out there. Plus, we probably know some of the same people. Oh, to that incestuously small community for as large as it is. Right. We all know each other. Um, well, Bill, I appreciate uh you being on the podcast today, and I thank you for your time, and I hope you have a really great rest of your week.

Bill Poole 53:34

Andrew, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks.